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Synchronicity; Apophenia and the 11:11 fallacy

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posted on Feb, 3 2016 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

I respectfully request that if you wish to debate the topics of o.b.e's, simulated reality, alternative theories of everything, or any other subject not falling under this thread's defined topic of a naturalistic explanation of synchronicity, please do so in a private message.

This thread is intended to document my own experiment in showing how synchronicity can be reproduced completely naturally, and you are pushing it far off course.

I have a number of experiences and coincidences to add, feel free to comment on them when I do.





posted on Feb, 8 2016 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: spygeek

what? how is any of what ive said off topic? my conjecture is that the universe is alive, thinking, and communicating. there is anecdotal evidence that this may actually be the case. if that is true then synchronicity could very well be attributed to reality itself. saying that since you can prove that it might be a coincidence or confirmation bias does not make it so. i would be fine with this thread if it were not for the way you presented the matter at hand. calling it woo and basically saying you're stupid if you believe such things. ignoring varying viewpoints to come to a half assed conclusion for why something happens is the bad thing.

i really dont know how you come to the conclusion that im pushing this off course. ive been arguing the same thing the whole time. its not my fault that this is a multi faceted issue.



posted on Feb, 16 2016 @ 07:59 AM
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Self reported anecdotal evidence is meaningless. If you can not provide anything objective to validate your conjecture, then please stop pushing it.

This thread is about what can be tested and shown to be true without resulting to conjecture or unsubstantiated claims.

My personal opinion, which you seem to take offence to, may indeed change if information or evidence comes to light, as I have already said.

I have not said your conjectures are not true, I have only pointed out that they are unfalsifiable, unprovable, and some are contradictory to observed evidence.

I have called no-one stupid, I have ignored nothing, I only place less value on conjecture and unevidenced claims than those supported by evidence. My use of the term "woo" is only in reference to pseudoscientific gibberish that claims to be scientific.

I have just returned from a two week trip to Malaysia, and I have made notes of many coincidences surrounding 842 that I think you may be interested in discussing. Can we please focus on my personal experiment and stop talking about things that are unrelated and indefinable?

Please realise that I do infact understand your point of view, it is not a new or revolutionary belief by any stretch. It is a personal opinion and a faith based ideology. My experiment is intended to show how anyone can 'self-manufacture their own synchronistic reality', it is not intended to prove that the universe is not conscious or communicating.

In the next few days I will be typing up a post or two detailing my experiences. At this point I have found that while non-842 have remained relatively rare, 842 based coincidences have become almost commonplace.

What I suspect can be deduced from this is that I have in fact invented my own psychological bias for recognising my chosen number pattern. 11:11 has been conspicuously absent..



posted on Feb, 16 2016 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: spygeek

like i said most of it is coincidence. 11:11 means nothing. the way you talk about synchronicity comes off as if you've got it figured out beyond a shadow of a doubt simply because you've conducted a few tests. which are them selves, though record able, are anecdotal. . i do take offense to this and I've told you why.
edit on 16-2-2016 by AVoiceOfReason because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2016 @ 02:24 PM
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originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: spygeek

like i said most of it is coincidence. 11:11 means nothing. the way you talk about synchronicity comes off as if you've got it figured out beyond a shadow of a doubt simply because you've conducted a few tests. which are them selves, though record able, are anecdotal. . i do take offense to this and I've told you why.


I find that evidence available to explain synchronicity in metaphysical terms is lacking, while a perfectly natural psychological explanation is sufficient. My experiment is to see if, in practice, a natural explanation is indeed correct. I accept and admit my experiment relies on self reported anecdotal evidence, however there does not seem to be any other way to test it.

At what point does "most of it is coincidence" become synchronicity? How can one objectively define what is synchronistic and what is normal coincidence? What criteria must be filled in order to make the distinction? From what I can see, there is no solid, absolute criteria other than a series of coincidences feeling "significant".

I apologise for offending you with my opinion. Of course nothing is really known beyond a shadow of a doubt, however there are explanations that are far more likely and justifiable than others, when all evidence is examined.



posted on Feb, 17 2016 @ 05:40 PM
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Ok, I have been trying to find the best way to present my notes in an intelligible fashion, and I think chronologically is probably best..

I experienced two non 842 coincidences on the 21st of January, first when a colleague and I were talking over coffee about a particularly bright student we had both taught and admired, and who had graduated last year. Two hours later that same student knocked on my office door to ask if he could borrow a couple of my books (ex-students can no longer use the library). One of the books he requested was none other than Carl Jung's "The Red Book", which unfortunately I do not own.

The second coincidence was later that night, while I was doing the dishes. I had the television on in the living room but was not really paying attention to it, preferring instead to let my mind wander over the events of the day and my upcoming overseas trip. The unfortunate thought struck me that I would be returning home in the early hours of Sunday the 14th of February, giving me very little time to arrange a valentine's outing for my partner while jet-lagged and exhausted, and I would be returning to work about 30hours later. Precisely at the moment I had this dreadful thought, a advertisement for cheap return flights to Melbourne with Jetstar, the airline I would be making the final return flight from Melbourne with, played.

I looked at the clock: 8:24pm.. Close, but no cigar.

Nothing of note happened until I was on the way to Kuala Lumpur from Melbourne on the 23rd of January. The flight expected to take 7hours and 27minutes. We were delayed by strong winds en route and traffic at KL airport, the captain reported upon landing that the flight had taken 8hours and 42minutes. Roughly forty minutes later, after I had cleared customs and retreived my baggage, I hailed the first taxi I saw outside. The licence plate read HAB 8428.

On Monday the 25th of January, I used an ATM to withdraw some local currency, (Malaysian Ringgit - RM). I budgeted for the equivalent of $300 of my own currency, which turned out to be RM842.35. Ten minutes later I bought a pack of the cheapest, nasty Malaysian cigarettes I could find, (trying to quit), from a 7/11, they cost RM8.42 +tax (RM8.93 total).

On the 28th of January, I met with a friend who is teaching English at UCSI University. He was 42minutes late, guess what time he walked in the bar? I had to chuckle as the two piece bar band was into the second verse of that song when he arrived. A couple hours and a number of beers later, we parted ways, and I taxied back to my hotel. What was the cab fare, you ask? RM42.80, sorry.

That following Saturday, the 30th of January, I flew to Kota Kinabalu, the captial of the Malaysian territory of Sabah, in Borneo. I had a quick Dim-sum lunch and a can of sprite at a restuarant near the airport, and was surprised to notice that my bill came to RM18.42. While walking across the parking lot to my rental car, (a rather spiffy Proton Saga), I saw that the cars parked on either side of it had the plate numbers SAA 7842 S and SAC 8424.

The 2nd of February, a Tuesday, saw a number of small, unconnected coincidences. Many times I would have a thought or internal monologue that mirrored a sentence or verse heard simultaneously, in a song on a radio, in the passing speech of nearby pedestrians, or indeed once even written in large letters on an advertising billboard. I'm unsure if these qualify as coincidences, but they seemed to happen a lot during this day, and not very much since.

The 3rd of Feburary saw me returning to Kuala Lumpur. Flight arrival time? 8:42am.

The 6th of February, Saturday. I awoke and rolled over, turned on the radio and glanced at the clock: 8:42am again. The song that was playing was half way through. I read the local paper over breakfast, my horoscope said: "When you hear yourself speaking what you don't mean or doing what you don't want to do, stop and consider what might be causing this duplicity. Once you figure it out, realign yourself properly. You'll be unstoppable."

I caught a cab to the local mall, did some souvenir shopping, got some good deals, (awesome exchange rate). I met my friend again at his favourite bar, and ordered a bottle of Tiger beer. We spent the late afternoon tipsy and laughing, catching up on the last six years since he moved away. He complained of the corrupt Malaysian government and the rampant racism in the city, and I empathised with my own dissatisfaction with my country's prime minister. "At least he didn't take over RM8,000,000 in corporate bribes last year, like Najib Razak", he replied.

"How much over 8million?" I aksed, curious. "I dunno, RM8.5 million or something. It was in a tabloid, not idea if it's actually true". I later tracked down this tabloid paper, the alleged amount was RM8,420,000, in exchange for allowing commercial development on previously protected agricultural land.

10th of February is when I next noted a coincidence, although I had become a little lax in my note taking by this stage, I am sure I did not miss any 842 coincidences. My friend had suggested i save a bit of money and stay my last few days with him, so I checked out of my hotel. The hotel bill was, surprise surprise, RM842.65. I heard that song again on the way to his apartment; my mp3 player on random, (it's on the excellent 'Reservior Dogs' soundtrack).

My final "synchronicity" occured while checking my luggage on the Air Asia flight back to Melbourne on the 12th of February. I weighed my carry-on satchel to see if it was under the 7kg allowable, it wasn't. It was 8.42kg. I got away with taking it onboard though.. The inflight meals were crap frozen microwaved Nasi Lemak, total waste of RM7.99 (RM8.42 incl. tax). During the flight I awoke from a sleep wearing headphones, and this song from last Saturday's waking was in my ears, half way through.

The flight was only slightly delayed, we arrived in Melbourne 7hours and 47minutes after departing Kuala Lumpur in our 747 airliner. I spent fourteen hours trying to sleep at the airport, bought some duty free booze, and boarded my flight out of Melbourne.

As soon as I arrived back home, I booked a table for two at my favourite restaurant for that night, and went to sleep. When we arrived at the restaurant I noticed that my car odometer had ticked over to 248,842kms. That f*** song, (which I am starting to really hate), played on the radio on the way home.

Not much of note has occured since I arrived back. A couple small unrelated coincidences here and there, only one 842 occurrence, which was the credit card bill i came home to: $8,428.48.

So there you go, one very long winded account of meaningless "synchronicity" manufactured by my own cognitive bias. I suspect the longer I carry on this experiment, the more frequently I will notice this number sequence. I wonder if it will even be possible to 'turn it off' and end the experiment, or if the psychological effect is permanent..

We shall see. Perhaps I will be stuck in the middle of it forever..


edit on 17-2-2016 by spygeek because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 07:37 AM
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What the hell is the deal with that song?

Last night, Wednesday 9th of March, I went out with a couple friends to our local bar, 'Snafu', for our customary mid week catch up..

A two piece guitar band starts setting up, soundcheck, and begin their set..

The first song they play? F***ing 'Stuck in the Middle'.. I laughed and looked at my watch..
F***ing 8:42pm..

This is just one of many 842 coincidences I've been experiencing.. It's pretty much commonplace now..

So what does this mean? I want to hear from those who believe in synchronicity here. What would your interpretation and advice be?

I know it's all in my head, but damn it's pervasive, distracting, possibly bordering on being confounding even..

It certainly doesn't seem to be going away.. What are your opinions ATS? The results of this experiment are completely subjective, I need objective appraisal here if I am going to draw any conclusions that aren't reliant on psychological bias..


originally posted by: EA006
a reply to: spygeek
I'd also like you to know when we're a few more days into this i'll type out the list of coincidences i've experienced in the last week, we can dissect them.

a reply to: EA006

Seven weeks later and the 842 coincidences are pretty much regular.. Still keen to dissect?



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 08:41 AM
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a reply to: spygeek

To me all your story seems pretty good anecdotal evidence of self induced synchronicity.

The final conclusion you can make only by yourself.

As much as I generally accept that synchronicity can exist I would classify only your first evidence as a ""classic true case of synchronicity". The one where you encountered your student asking for the book. You were probably thinking at that time that this is almost irrelevant,insignificant. So, the "consciousness behind synchronicity" decided to make a laugh of you.



posted on Mar, 11 2016 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: kitzik

Here's my two cents, for what it's worth. You asked to see 842, and you saw it in spades. You asked for a sign, and you received it. I'm pretty sure you know what comes next. You challenged the Universal Mind to prove that it communicates via synchronicities. In my opinion from what you wrote, Universal Mind did exactly what you asked it to do. So you tell me, what would the honorable thing to do be in this situation?

option a) you deny the proof that was given to you when you asked for it, and keep going on the way you were living your life before you conducted your experiment.
Or
option b) you accept that the Universal Mind gave you the exact evidence that you requested, and you grow your relationship with God/Source. Ask it something else. Ask it for clairification on an issue that you may have come up, and keep your eyes and ears open.

My advice. You can choose to accept it or deny it, it's up to you. But from my personal experience, and this is what I have studied for years. Is that synchronicities are communication from God/Source. It is the same, (and I can not stress that enough) communication that people have with near death experiences, as well as shamanistic experiences. The only difference, (and this took me years to understand) is how fast the flow of communication is. Near death experiences, and shamanisitc experiences, are extreemly fast communication, much like high speed internet. Signs and synchronicities, are a much slower form of communication, more like dial up. Although, the better you get at reading/recognizing/interpreting the synchronicities. The communication does get faster.

But I imagine in your situation. That you keep getting 842, because you haven't acknowledged what is sending it to you. Trust me, I am scientific minded. My dogtags list my religion as Realist. So when I experienced the Universal Mind, I refused to believe that it was "outside" communication, or not coming from my own head. That's when Source toyed with me. (God really does have a loving sense of humor.) Answering every question posed to it. Then answering the questions before I finished asking them. Then phrasing the question with me. To where it finally showed me the train of thought from there going forward. That's when I surendered. How do you beat that? It was obviously much more intelligent than I could ever hope to be in 100 lifetimes. So I surendered to it.

The funny thing is. When it revealed everything to me. Almost every single time it would ask, do you know (fill in the blank)? Every single time, I didn't believe what was being revealed, because everything sounded so absurd. Everything sounded the exact opposite of what I had believed to be true. But every single time, it would show me how it really was true. Black was white, and white was black. To top that off. The only reason we don't see the truth, or reality for what it really is. Is because we aren't as cynical as the people that have created it. We don't view things the way they do, because we aren't that negative. Once you put those glasses on, you are able to see how we are living in a mirror. The goal is to break that mirror. You break that mirror by waking others up to the fact, that we do in fact live in this mirror. Show them behind the curtains of Oz.

Peace,
TomSawyer



posted on Mar, 12 2016 @ 12:21 AM
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a reply to: kitzik

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: spygeek

To me all your story seems pretty good anecdotal evidence of self induced synchronicity.

The final conclusion you can make only by yourself.


This is the conclusion I have arrived at as well. My experience is exactly what would be expected from the kind of cognitive bias I am inducing. It shows clearly that things like the "11:11 phenomenon" are nothing more than subjective phychological constructs.


As much as I generally accept that synchronicity can exist I would classify only your first evidence as a ""classic true case of synchronicity". The one where you encountered your student asking for the book. You were probably thinking at that time that this is almost irrelevant,insignificant. So, the "consciousness behind synchronicity" decided to make a laugh of you.


Here is where we diverge.. In what way is the coincidence of a psychology graduate asking to borrow a couple of my psychology books distinct or meaningful? By what standard is it measured by for it to be the product of a universal unconscious will? What sets it apart from normal everyday coincidence?

Also, what assumptions are required to suuport the idea that the "consciousness behind synchronicity" wants to laught at me? What kind of predictions does such a hypoethesis provide? What extra explanatory power does such a claim have over natural explanations? What kind of assumptions about the character of this unconscious will are required, and what evidence is available to support those assumptions? How much guesswork are we allowed to employ regarding the character and intent of this universal will, before it completely becomes an imaginary, fictional character?

If we accept the natural explanation, then the "consciousness behind synchronicity" is in fact my own subconscious, meaning that essentially I wanted to make a laugh of myself. That is more or less one of the main points of forums like this, to have a laugh at ourselves, so that seems a pretty reasonable explanation to me.. I think deep down that I, like most people, enjoy having a laugh at myself from time to time..



posted on Mar, 12 2016 @ 12:31 AM
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a reply to: TomSawyer

originally posted by: TomSawyer
a reply to: kitzik

Here's my two cents, for what it's worth. You asked to see 842, and you saw it in spades. You asked for a sign, and you received it. I'm pretty sure you know what comes next. You challenged the Universal Mind to prove that it communicates via synchronicities. In my opinion from what you wrote, Universal Mind did exactly what you asked it to do. So you tell me, what would the honorable thing to do be in this situation?


But a sign of what exactly? I didn't "challenge the Universal Mind to prove that it communicates via synchronicities", I simply decided to start noticing 842.. A cognitive bias was created in my subconscious and I got exactly the evidence for self-manufactured "synchronicity" that I expected. If a natural explanation of what occurred exists, what's the need for a supernatural one? For this to have a "Universal Mind" basis, we would need to define and establish what standards set it apart from normal everyday coincidence and test my expriences in relation to those.

Claiming that this is experiment has provided evidence of a "Universal Mind" relies on the assumption that such a "Universal Mind" exists in the first place, while there is no positive evidence for such a thing, or even a definitive standard by which to define it, to begin with..


option a) you deny the proof that was given to you when you asked for it, and keep going on the way you were living your life before you conducted your experiment.


But it isn't evidence in favour of a "Universal Mind" at all.. It's evidence that you can consciously induce a synchronicitic pattern of any arbitrary number or thing you'd like to POOYA..

What explanatory power does a "Universal Mind" assumption have and what makes it a requisite for understanding my experiences?


Or
option b) you accept that the Universal Mind gave you the exact evidence that you requested, and you grow your relationship with God/Source. Ask it something else. Ask it for clairification on an issue that you may have come up, and keep your eyes and ears open.


I will begin to ask it directly what it wants to tell me, besides "well, you started out with nothing and you're proud that your a self-made man", and " inilah buktinya cinta yang di akhir garisan"..


My advice. You can choose to accept it or deny it, it's up to you. But from my personal experience, and this is what I have studied for years. Is that synchronicities are communication from God/Source. It is the same, (and I can not stress that enough) communication that people have with near death experiences, as well as shamanistic experiences.


All of these can be reasonably explained by natural physiology; psychology and neuroscience, biochemistry and neurochemistry. There would have to be some unexplainable aspect that defies current scienctific understanding for me to accept that this is communication from God. I would want to know by what established standard can we define this communication and it's meaning. I would want to establish how such communication can be positively identified and objectively understood.


The only difference, (and this took me years to understand) is how fast the flow of communication is. Near death experiences, and shamanisitc experiences, are extreemly fast communication, much like high speed internet. Signs and synchronicities, are a much slower form of communication, more like dial up. Although, the better you get at reading/recognizing/interpreting the synchronicities. The communication does get faster.


This is all, again, explainable by natural scientific understanding.. The disassociation and rapid hallucinations that occur on the verge of death and during specific oxygen depriving meditation or other intoxicating practices, have been studied and fit with natural explanations..


But I imagine in your situation. That you keep getting 842, because you haven't acknowledged what is sending it to you. Trust me, I am scientific minded. My dogtags list my religion as Realist. So when I experienced the Universal Mind, I refused to believe that it was "outside" communication, or not coming from my own head. That's when Source toyed with me. (God really does have a loving sense of humor.) Answering every question posed to it. Then answering the questions before I finished asking them. Then phrasing the question with me. To where it finally showed me the train of thought from there going forward. That's when I surendered. How do you beat that? It was obviously much more intelligent than I could ever hope to be in 100 lifetimes. So I surendered to it.


Argument from assertion. There is very little in your description here to make me consider any explanation other than your own subconscious disposition..


The funny thing is. When it revealed everything to me. Almost every single time it would ask, do you know (fill in the blank)? Every single time, I didn't believe what was being revealed, because everything sounded so absurd. Everything sounded the exact opposite of what I had believed to be true. But every single time, it would show me how it really was true. Black was white, and white was black. To top that off. The only reason we don't see the truth, or reality for what it really is. Is because we aren't as cynical as the people that have created it. We don't view things the way they do, because we aren't that negative. Once you put those glasses on, you are able to see how we are living in a mirror. The goal is to break that mirror. You break that mirror by waking others up to the fact, that we do in fact live in this mirror. Show them behind the curtains of Oz.

Peace,
TomSawyer


This is all getting quite wafty and wooish.. Can you provide examples of where it revealed to you things that were the opposite of what you believed to be true, "white was black", etc? In what ways exactly are we living in a mirror? What is involved in "waking people up to the fact"? What evidence do you use to "show them behind the curtains of OZ"?



posted on Mar, 12 2016 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: spygeek

You know, I was actually going to go through all of this step by step for a few minutes there. But to be honest, I don't have the energy to sit and do this with you anymore. It's obvious that you have painted any possibility of a higher power being behind synchronicities, into a tight little corner.

If you were God, and you heard someone that you created, say that God doesn't communicate via synchronicities, and that they were going to run an experiment to prove it. Wouldn't you view that as a challenge? I think I would. Then the number of times that you saw it to me was uncanny. I found myself in your shoes, wondering if you actually saw it as many times as you claimed that you had. Even you said that toward the end, it was making you laugh when it happened. So even to you, it was uncanny apparently.

But you experiment does not explain how the uncanny "coincidences" happen. You know, like getting a free concert, free hat, and free dinner, plus $10 for your time. All while two of them came to you, via flying out of, or off of a car driving in the street in front of you twice in one day. If that doesn't meet your requirement of uncanny, in all seriousness, what will? Aren't I really just wasting my time here?

But either way in your experiment, God was set up to loose. If it tries to communicate via synchronicities and you see them, to you it's just further proof that you trained your brain to see it. So it's a no win situation.

There is a huge difference between belief and knowledge. Neither one of us has a way to prove their belief is right. All your experiment did was hijack or switch the terminology that I was using, to explain the same phenomenon. Sorry, but it proves nothing in my opinion.

Peace,
TomSawyer



posted on Mar, 13 2016 @ 12:29 PM
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a reply to: spygeek




Here is where we diverge.. In what way is the coincidence of a psychology graduate asking to borrow a couple of my psychology books distinct or meaningful? By what standard is it measured by for it to be the product of a universal unconscious will? What sets it apart from normal everyday coincidence?


Well, I can't say for sure how much "asking for Jung book" is normal for your day to day lecturer routine. Now you rewrote this event as borrowing unspecified "psychological books". Ok I don't want to expand on this further, if you yourself retracting.


If we accept the natural explanation, then the "consciousness behind synchronicity" is in fact my own subconscious, meaning that essentially I wanted to make a laugh of myself.
You very much yourself like rigorous scientific definitions. Yet when you say subconscious you are dealing with what you like to call "woo". There is no good scientific theory explaining what is "subconscious". Jung theorized that personal subconscious can interact with global subconscious. And that synchronicity is a manifestation of this interaction.




I think deep down that I, like most people, enjoy having a laugh at myself from time to time..


Very good. I seen you were disturbed in your previous recent comments, so a little psycho-woo therapy was needed.



posted on Mar, 13 2016 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: TomSawyer
a reply to: spygeek

You know, I was actually going to go through all of this step by step for a few minutes there. But to be honest, I don't have the energy to sit and do this with you anymore. It's obvious that you have painted any possibility of a higher power being behind synchronicities, into a tight little corner.


Of course I have, that's the point of experiments, to paint the unlikely explanations in a space where they fit, while determining the likely explanations through repeated testing..

For a higher power to be behind synchronicities, there would have to be something naturally unexplainable about them, to investigate..

At the very least, we would need to define exactly what kind of "higher power" it is and in what way it can be positively identified..


If you were God, and you heard someone that you created, say that God doesn't communicate via synchronicities, and that they were going to run an experiment to prove it. Wouldn't you view that as a challenge? I think I would.


Ignoring the fact I never set out prove God doesn't communicate via synchronicities, only that they can be self-induced and are explainable without the metaphysical, yes, I would view it as a challenge..

I would engineer synchronicities for this someone to experience that were so unexpected, mind-blowing, personal and relevant, hugely significant and completely inexplicable, as to leave that someone with no choice but to admit they were wrong.

This clearly has not happened, I have experienced exactly what I would expect to, given the natural explanation..


Then the number of times that you saw it to me was uncanny. I found myself in your shoes, wondering if you actually saw it as many times as you claimed that you had. Even you said that toward the end, it was making you laugh when it happened. So even to you, it was uncanny apparently.


I wouldn't myself describe them as uncanny, I was laughing because I found them amusing.


But you experiment does not explain how the uncanny "coincidences" happen. You know, like getting a free concert, free hat, and free dinner, plus $10 for your time. All while two of them came to you, via flying out of, or off of a car driving in the street in front of you twice in one day. If that doesn't meet your requirement of uncanny, in all seriousness, what will? Aren't I really just wasting my time here?


You might feel your own experience of coincidences were uncanny, but to some outside observers they are not particularly remarkable.. There is such a great deal of subjective bias in interpreting coincidences, that it renders the objective explanation of them inadequate to some..

What standard are you defining with 'uncanny'? How can that be objectively measured?


But either way in your experiment, God was set up to loose. If it tries to communicate via synchronicities and you see them, to you it's just further proof that you trained your brain to see it. So it's a no win situation.


He could certainly actually communicate to me so I have something unnatural to analyse, for a start.. If He did nothing then I still would have exactly the same experience I have had, that is the point I am making..

Lumping my chosen, self-induced 842 apophenia on with communication from God is disingenuous when it has been shown to fit with natural predictions.


There is a huge difference between belief and knowledge. Neither one of us has a way to prove their belief is right. All your experiment did was hijack or switch the terminology that I was using, to explain the same phenomenon. Sorry, but it proves nothing in my opinion.

Peace,
TomSawyer


I believe that synchronicities and phenomena like the "11:11" thing are subjective psychological constructs.

I proved through ongoing experiment that it is possible to replicate the "11:11 phenomena" and synchronicity completely naturally through conscious intent.

Therefore, I believe and know that it's apophenia.

I would say there is a huge difference between faith and knowledge, and it is clear that in the absence of knowledge, faith will often take over.
edit on 13-3-2016 by spygeek because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2016 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: spygeek




Here is where we diverge.. In what way is the coincidence of a psychology graduate asking to borrow a couple of my psychology books distinct or meaningful? By what standard is it measured by for it to be the product of a universal unconscious will? What sets it apart from normal everyday coincidence?


Well, I can't say for sure how much "asking for Jung book" is normal for your day to day lecturer routine. Now you rewrote this event as borrowing unspecified "psychological books". Ok I don't want to expand on this further, if you yourself retracting.


The original event post:

 Two hours later that same student knocked on my office door to ask if he could borrow a couple of my books (ex-students can no longer use the library). One of the books he requested was none other than Carl Jung's "The Red Book", which unfortunately I do not own. 


Which I later referred to as:

 the coincidence of a psychology graduate asking to borrow a couple of my psychology books


Where's the retraction? Jung was a pioneer in psychology, of course it's likely a psychology graduate would read him..





If we accept the natural explanation, then the "consciousness behind synchronicity" is in fact my own subconscious, meaning that essentially I wanted to make a laugh of myself.


You very much yourself like rigorous scientific definitions. Yet when you say subconscious you are dealing with what you like to call "woo". There is no good scientific theory explaining what is "subconscious". Jung theorized that personal subconscious can interact with global subconscious. And that synchronicity is a manifestation of this interaction.


There is plenty of scientific understanding and research into consciousness, and the subconscious specifically. There is difference between psychology-woo like "universal consciousness" and scientific psychology like the nature of psychological addiction or the formation of cognitive bias..

We know the subconscious exists, we know pretty much how it works, we know generally which parts of the brain are involved in it, and we can predict it's behaviour in reaction to certain stimuli..

Jung's theory introduced a huge unknowable into the equation with his "collective unconscious." It provides no answers or explanatory power, and raises a multitude of assumptions about the nature if this "consciousness" and its interaction with our minds. Occam's razor alone rules it out.

There is a reason his theory is not accepted by the majority of modern psychologists; he more we learn about the mind, the less likely it becomes.




I think deep down that I, like most people, enjoy having a laugh at myself from time to time..


Very good. I seen you were disturbed in your previous recent comments, so a little psycho-woo therapy was needed.



Disturbed? Psycho woo therapy?

*looks up at the url bar for a second*

Oh right, I'm on ats.. figures..




posted on Mar, 13 2016 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: spygeek




Where's the retraction? Jung was a pioneer in psychology, of course it's likely a psychology graduate would read him..


If it was a daily normal occurrence, I wonder why you included this in the first time.




Disturbed?
- What the hell is the deal with that song? . I know it's all in my head, but damn it's pervasive, distracting, possibly bordering on being confounding even.. So what does this mean? I want to hear from those who believe in synchronicity here. What would your interpretation and advice be?

Sorry, I interrupted you, go back to positivistic world dreaming.

It is dishonest, first to ask help. And after this starting again lecturing. I know your views, I've read all this thread. You wanted some kind of explanation from the synchronicity believer. I did it. If you can't see how your first report with Jung and without Jung are different, I put my hat off. You just like to preach your positivistic worldview, fair enough. But I don't belong to your church.
edit on 13-3-2016 by kitzik because: (no reason given)


How is your damned song and 842 ? Do you know how to switch it off ? Haven't you been disturbed by this ?
Ok, you've been lying before, exaggerating your emotional distress. Why should I believe your reports now ?
edit on 13-3-2016 by kitzik because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 13 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: spygeek

You know, I was actually going to go through all of this step by step for a few minutes there. But to be honest, I don't have the energy to sit and do this with you anymore. It's obvious that you have painted any possibility of a higher power being behind synchronicities, into a tight little corner.



Of course I have, that's the point of experiments, to paint the unlikely explanations in a space where they fit, while determining the likely explanations through repeated testing..

How open minded of you.

For a higher power to be behind synchronicities, there would have to be something naturally unexplainable about them, to investigate..

We are talking about things that exist outside of physical matter. So there is no way to know beyond a shadow of a doubt if what you are saying is true or not, scientifically or otherwise.

At the very least, we would need to define exactly what kind of "higher power" it is and in what way it can be positively identified..

No we don't. i don't need to prove anything to myself here. I've already walked this path, I was just trying to help show you the way. But I'm not going to drag you kicking and screaming, Which is what this has equated to so far.


If you were God, and you heard someone that you created, say that God doesn't communicate via synchronicities, and that they were going to run an experiment to prove it. Wouldn't you view that as a challenge? I think I would.



Ignoring the fact I never set out prove God doesn't communicate via synchronicities, only that they can be self-induced and are explainable without the metaphysical, yes, I would view it as a challenge..


This is back tracking in my opinion. You said what I was saying was woo. I was stating that God communicates via synchronicities. Then you set up this post, to prove that synchronicities could be explained away by science, and if you believe otherwise. Well I guess your just a woo fan. Just because they are explainable, does not in turn make the explanation right/fact.

I would engineer synchronicities for this someone to experience that were so unexpected, mind-blowing, personal and relevant, hugely significant and completely inexplicable, as to leave that someone with no choice but to admit they were wrong.

I sincerely hope that you do exactly what you said here. I double dog dare ya! ;-) I did, and it's what got me started on the path to where I am today.

This clearly has not happened, I have experienced exactly what I would expect to, given the natural explanation..


Then the number of times that you saw it to me was uncanny. I found myself in your shoes, wondering if you actually saw it as many times as you claimed that you had. Even you said that toward the end, it was making you laugh when it happened. So even to you, it was uncanny apparently.



I wouldn't myself describe them as uncanny, I was laughing because I found them amusing.

Are you honestly claiming that it wasn't amusing, because of how many times it was happening? You even used an expletive on one of the last ones when it happened. Almost as if to say, alright enough already. Even stating that you wondered how long it would take to stop seeing it. Maybe you should train your brain to not see it.


But you experiment does not explain how the uncanny "coincidences" happen. You know, like getting a free concert, free hat, and free dinner, plus $10 for your time. All while two of them came to you, via flying out of, or off of a car driving in the street in front of you twice in one day. If that doesn't meet your requirement of uncanny, in all seriousness, what will? Aren't I really just wasting my time here?



You might feel your own experience of coincidences were uncanny, but to some outside observers they are not particularly remarkable.. There is such a great deal of subjective bias in interpreting coincidences, that it renders the objective explanation of them inadequate to some..

Your full of it. Anyone that says a brand new hat, flying off behind a car when it drives off in front of you. Within 1.5 hours of your daughter not being able to decide what hat to wear, because she didn't want to wear any of them. That also just so happens, to be a nice woman's hat that your daughter really likes.

On the same day that a bag full of two pizzas and chicken wings, fall off of a car in a pizza delivery bag, in the street in front of you. That you later get for free, and a $10 reward for tuning the bag back in.

If anyone can say to me, that just those two things are completely normal occurrences to happen in one day in an average persons life. (Keeping in mind there were a few more I'm not mentioning.) I'll tell them to their face that they're full of it too. If that were the case. Everyone would just go out by the road every day, and wait for their clothes and dinner to fall in front of them.

What standard are you defining with 'uncanny'? How can that be objectively measured?

Odds are uncanny. What odds do you call uncanny? What are the chances of it happening?


But either way in your experiment, God was set up to loose. If it tries to communicate via synchronicities and you see them, to you it's just further proof that you trained your brain to see it. So it's a no win situation.



He could certainly actually communicate to me so I have something unnatural to analyse, for a start.. If He did nothing then I still would have exactly the same experience I have had, that is the point I am making..


The only thing I will say to this. Is if you expect God to perform to you and your standards like a circus monkey. That is not how it works. But if you genuinely ask for a sign for verification, with an open mind/heart. You might be surprised?

Lumping my chosen, self-induced 842 apophenia on with communication from God is disingenuous when it has been shown to fit with natural predictions.

Depends on the point of view, from which you speak. You don't know for a fact, that God didn't jump on the opportunity while you were going to be paying attention, to try and wake you up. When else would it get the chance? After you've driven another nail in the coffin of possibility?


There is a huge difference between belief and knowledge. Neither one of us has a way to prove their belief is right. All your experiment did was hijack or switch the terminology that I was using, to explain the same phenomenon. Sorry, but it proves nothing in my opinion.

Peace,
TomSawyer



I believe that synchronicities and phenomena like the "11:11" thing are subjective psychological constructs.

and I don't

I proved through ongoing experiment that it is possible to replicate the "11:11 phenomena" and synchronicity completely naturally through conscious intent.

No, you did not. Ok, go out and get you a free hat, and some free pizza and chicken wings. By making them fall off of or our of a car driving in front of you in one day, and then we'll talk about what you have proven. (I'll give you a hint, that's not the way it works.)

Therefore, I believe and know that it's apophenia.

No, you believe that you know. Big difference.

I would say there is a huge difference between faith and knowledge, and it is clear that in the absence of knowledge, faith will often take over.


I say belief, you say faith. Belief, faith. Belief, faith.



posted on Mar, 14 2016 @ 03:59 PM
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a reply to: kitzik

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: spygeek




Where's the retraction? Jung was a pioneer in psychology, of course it's likely a psychology graduate would read him..


If it was a daily normal occurrence, I wonder why you included this in the first time.


I included it because it fit the criteria of "non-842 coincidence", the frequency of which is the controlled variable of this experiment. Coincidences, whether 842 or non-842, are not a daily occurrence, for me at least.




Disturbed?
- What the hell is the deal with that song? . I know it's all in my head, but damn it's pervasive, distracting, possibly bordering on being confounding even.. So what does this mean? I want to hear from those who believe in synchronicity here. What would your interpretation and advice be?

Sorry, I interrupted you, go back to positivistic world dreaming.


Let me be clear; I am not disturbed by the the song or 842. It is a humorously common occurrence that makes me laugh at how pattern-dependent the nature of my mind is, or indeed, everyone's minds are..

The fact that the frequency of 842 coincidences are almost confounding, is interesting and reinforces the notion that number based synchronicity becomes more solidified over time.

While I admit I do personally lean more toward logical positivism than metaphysical mysticism, the fact that the central tenet of logical positivism is that it can in fact be itself ignored, should tell you something about the philosophy and its irrelevance to this experiment.


It is dishonest, first to ask help. And after this starting again lecturing. I know your views, I've read all this thread. You wanted some kind of explanation from the synchronicity believer. I did it. If you can't see how your first report with Jung and without Jung are different, I put my hat off. You just like to preach your positivistic worldview, fair enough. But I don't belong to your church.


I found your explanation inadequate, that is all. If you would like to revise it and present it again, I would be grateful. This is exactly the point of sharing the experiment here, to refine its methods and what inferences can be drawn through the input of synchronicity believers.

I asked you specific questions regarding the limits of the universal consciousness hypothesis, if you could answer them it would benefit my experiement and understanding:


What kind of predictions does such a hypothesis provide?
What extra explanatory power does such a claim have over natural explanations?
What kind of assumptions about the character of this unconscious will are required, and what evidence is available to support those assumptions?
How much guesswork are we allowed to employ regarding the character and intent of this universal will, before it completely becomes an imaginary, fictional character?


I wasn't rewording or retracting anything from the graduate asking for Jung coincidence. You brought it up, so obviously you had read it and knew the details, what would be the point of trying to rewrite it? I simply referred to it and asked you to explain to me what makes this coincidence distinct or meaningful, objectively speaking. I am still awaiting your explanation.


How is your damned song and 842 ? Do you know how to switch it off ? Haven't you been disturbed by this ?
Ok, you've been lying before, exaggerating your emotional distress. Why should I believe your reports now ?


At this point i do not know how to switch it off.. I suspect it will go away on its own over time if I make a conscious effort to ignore it.. I wasn't exaggerating any kind of emotional distress, I think you are incorrectly interpeting the spirit of my words.. "What the hell is with that song?" was intended to infer lighthearted amusement, not emotional distress.

Likewise, the fact that the coincidences are pervasive and distracting does not cause me distress, rather amusement.



edit on 14-3-2016 by spygeek because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 14 2016 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: TomSawyer
a reply to: spygeek

How open minded of you.


I know you are attempting sarcasm, but ironically I am indeed being very open minded toward the idea. I'm entertaining the possibility, and trying to empirically verify it.

"Open-mindedness" does not mean "accept everything you hear and believe anything you want without consideration":



We are talking about things that exist outside of physical matter. So there is no way to know beyond a shadow of a doubt if what you are saying is true or not, scientifically or otherwise.


If they exist outside of physical matter, how can they have any influence over physical matter? There must be a physical component to them for them to have any influence or effect in the material world at all.


No we don't. i don't need to prove anything to myself here. I've already walked this path, I was just trying to help show you the way. But I'm not going to drag you kicking and screaming, Which is what this has equated to so far.


I just want a sound, logical, rational basis for it. That is all. Something based in fact and evidence. I keep asking for you to clarify your position, tell me what assumptions are required, what can be inferred by the idea/predictions the could be made, how can the unconscious will be identified etc.. I have received none of this, only knee-jerk annoyance and anger from you..


This is back tracking in my opinion. You said what I was saying was woo. I was stating that God communicates via synchronicities. Then you set up this post, to prove that synchronicities could be explained away by science, and if you believe otherwise. Well I guess your just a woo fan. Just because they are explainable, does not in turn make the explanation right/fact.


If there are two explanations for something, the one with the most objective evidence and is falsifiable, should be considered correct. Occam's razor at its most fundamental.


I sincerely hope that you do exactly what you said here. I double dog dare ya! ;-) I did, and it's what got me started on the path to where I am today.


But I can't, I am not God. You asked me what I would do if I was God and was challenged..

Are you admitting you engineered your own synchronicities, which got you started on the path to where you are?


Are you honestly claiming that it wasn't amusing, because of how many times it was happening? You even used an expletive on one of the last ones when it happened. Almost as if to say, alright enough already. Even stating that you wondered how long it would take to stop seeing it. Maybe you should train your brain to not see it.


Yes, I was laughing because of how much it was happening. I still do laugh when it happens. That doesn't make it uncanny. I completely expected from the outset that they would increase in frequency, even become regular.. There is nothing mysterious or unnatural about it, to me at least.


But you experiment does not explain how the uncanny "coincidences" happen. You know, like getting a free concert, free hat, and free dinner, plus $10 for your time. All while two of them came to you, via flying out of, or off of a car driving in the street in front of you twice in one day. If that doesn't meet your requirement of uncanny, in all seriousness, what will? Aren't I really just wasting my time here?


Actually, I have addressed this very point in both this thread and in private messages with you.. It is inevitable that this kind of thing would happen to someone, at some point. Just because it the odds of predicting the specific person it will happen to is extremely low, doesn't mean it is unlikely to happen to anyone.

I have covered, more than once, the point that unlikely things happen, all the time, and the law of large numbers makes almost anything certain to happen.


Your full of it. Anyone that says a brand new hat, flying off behind a car when it drives off in front of you. Within 1.5 hours of your daughter not being able to decide what hat to wear, because she didn't want to wear any of them. That also just so happens, to be a nice woman's hat that your daughter really likes.

On the same day that a bag full of two pizzas and chicken wings, fall off of a car in a pizza delivery bag, in the street in front of you. That you later get for free, and a $10 reward for tuning the bag back in.


Are you suggesting that God Himself decided to provide you daughter with a new hat, and you with free chicken and pizza?


If anyone can say to me, that just those two things are completely normal occurrences to happen in one day in an average persons life. (Keeping in mind there were a few more I'm not mentioning.) I'll tell them to their face that they're full of it too. If that were the case. Everyone would just go out by the road every day, and wait for their clothes and dinner to fall in front of them.


Nice strawman.

Those two things are indeed completely normal occurrences to happen in an average persons life. Stranger things have happened, in fact.


Odds are uncanny. What odds do you call uncanny? What are the chances of it happening?


The odds of something like it happening to someone at some point in the history or future of the universe are 100%. It will happen again, most certainly, although the odds of it happening again for you are reduced.


The only thing I will say to this. Is if you expect God to perform to you and your standards like a circus monkey. That is not how it works. But if you genuinely ask for a sign for verification, with an open mind/heart. You might be surprised?


I expect nothing of God. This experiment is not about God, proving or disproving Him. All I want to know is, if He's behind it, how could I tell?


Depends on the point of view, from which you speak. You don't know for a fact, that God didn't jump on the opportunity while you were going to be paying attention, to try and wake you up. When else would it get the chance? After you've driven another nail in the coffin of possibility?


But what is the basis for the assumption? Explain why and how it more reasonable to believe this when all the evidence points me subconsciously manufacturing it myself.


and I don't


As is your prerogative.


No, you did not. Ok, go out and get you a free hat, and some free pizza and chicken wings. By making them fall off of or our of a car driving in front of you in one day, and then we'll talk about what you have proven. (I'll give you a hint, that's not the way it works.)


Are you saying that my experience of 842 apophenia differs from the 11:11 phenomenon? How so?

I get it, you believe God gave you free stuff.. You take the opportunity to tell Him that nearly half of the world's population are starving and would really appreciate some free pizza and chicken.


No, you believe that you know. Big difference.


I believed, then I tested my belief, and now I know based on evidence.


I say belief, you say faith. Belief, faith.


Two different things, be careful not to confuse them.



posted on Mar, 14 2016 @ 09:59 PM
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a reply to: spygeek

If they exist outside of physical matter, how can they have any influence over physical matter? There must be a physical component to them for them to have any influence or effect in the material world at all.

So thoughts have physical matter?



If there are two explanations for something, the one with the most objective evidence and is falsifiable, should be considered correct. Occam's razor at its most fundamental.

Take a step outside of yourself for a minute or two with me, if you don't mind. There are religions all over this world that have different explanations for something. That something is God. There is not one religion that has the most objective evidence of said God, because God is not on this physical plane in physical form.

Therefore no one knows for a fact if what they are teaching or believe is even correct or fact. Some believe that they know for a fact. But there is no way for any of them to know. It's not any different than our disagreement here about synchronicity. I am not going to sit here and say that I know for a fact that I am right. Do I believe that I know, sure. But only God actually knows for sure.

Pretend that there is a God, and when you die you go and have a discussion with it. (To me God is a conscious energy, which encompasses male and female in my opinion. Which is why I am saying "it".) But pretend you're looking down at the world, and call something Black like a car on the road or something. If God says in response, in all actuality that color is called white. Are you really going to argue with it?

What if it explains that the color was given it's name when it was created? Or that people on Earth just came up with a different name for it. Just like on all of these other planets, they have completely different names for it as well. Do you see how the only things that are really even possible to know for sure, are what you learn from experience. Like if you touch a stove when it's hot, you'll burn your hand? Other then that we're all just giving different names to the same things, and everyone is under the impression that they know these things and are facts.

The band Rush has lyrics that this reminds me of this. they says "Everyone knows everything, and no one is ever wrong. Until later. Who can you believe? We try to play it safe. But apart from a few good friends, we don't take anything on faith. Until later."



I would engineer synchronicities for this someone to experience that were so unexpected, mind-blowing, personal and relevant, hugely significant and completely inexplicable, as to leave that someone with no choice but to admit they were wrong.

I sincerely hope that you do exactly what you said here. I double dog dare ya! ;-) I did, and it's what got me started on the path to where I am today.

But I can't, I am not God. You asked me what I would do if I was God and was challenged..

Does it make more sense if I put it together like this?

If you genuinely ask for a sign for verification, with an open mind/heart. You might be surprised? Ask for God to engineer a synchronicity/sign for you to experience that is so unexpected, mind-blowing, personal and relevant, hugely significant and completely inexplicable, as to leave you with no choice but to admit you were wrong.
I sincerely hope that you do exactly what I said here. I double dog dare ya! ;-) I did, and it's what got me started on the path to where I am today.

Are you admitting you engineered your own synchronicities, which got you started on the path to where you are?

Kind of an odd way to phrase it, but the simple answer is no. I think I have been pretty clear about that.


Actually, I have addressed this very point in both this thread and in private messages with you.. It is inevitable that this kind of thing would happen to someone, at some point. Just because it the odds of predicting the specific person it will happen to is extremely low, doesn't mean it is unlikely to happen to anyone.

I completely disagree with you on this one. If you went to Vegas and tried to place a bet on those two things happening to you in one day. I'm pretty sure you and I both know, the odds of both of those things happening to the same person in the same day would be extremely long. I could retire kind of long. In my opinion, the reason it is that way. Is to get your attention, with asking what are the chances of that happening?




Are you suggesting that God Himself decided to provide you daughter with a new hat, and you with free chicken and pizza?

Are you seriously asking me this far into these conversations, if that is what I have been saying this entire time? Seriously? Again, I thought I was pretty clear on this. Yes, I believe that God communicates to us via synchronicities.
What is so shocking about that anyways? God created us all, so why is that so strange that it would have an interest in all of it's creations? Not just me, everyone. If the Bible is correct, which I am not saying that it is. Then God is everywhere, and knows everything. If God is a conscious energy, that is inside of everything that it. It would meet both of those descriptions. So yeah, why not? It's also the bridge between your brain and mine and everyone else. God is pretty awesome, probably more awesome than imaginable, if I am right in my understandings.




Are you saying that my experience of 842 apophenia differs from the 11:11 phenomenon? How so?


Well I can only speak for me. But how yours differ from mine, and some other peoples stories that I have read. Is that I wasn't actively looking for signs, or trying to create them. I wasn't kidding when I said that I completely missed my car turning 111,111, and I was looking forward to it. So obviously I haven't trainned my brain too well, or that wouldn't have happened.

But you picked a number. In my case the number picked me, and according to others it picked them as well. The question here is why 11:11? It could have been any set of numbers. But everyone is seeing the same ones? My guess is that 11:11 represents the beginning of seeing these things.

But from there it progresses to different numbers, then different kinds of signs and synchronicities. Kind of like how you would learn a new language. But the way you are doing it, you are in charge. It's not communication to you, to you it's more of a game. The way others do it, they surrender to it, and let the signs come to them as God intends them. Not trying to manufacture them. This isn't about how can I use this to get personal gains. This is about learning a language, and when trying to learn a new language. It is best to let the teacher teach, and not just go around assigning your own words to things, and expecting to be able to communicate.




I get it, you believe God gave you free stuff.. You take the opportunity to tell Him that nearly half of the world's population are starving and would really appreciate some free pizza and chicken.

Tell God yourself, you have a mouth, right? Making light of kids starving now? How nice. Remember John St Julien? People like him, is how this world changes. Not by sitting here on the internet, mocking people that want to be part of that change. If you're as smart as you seem to think you are. Why don't you understand that a conscious energy doesn't have physical form. The way it get's it's will done, is through us and our actions.

Peace,
TomSawyer




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