A queer finding: gender isn’t binary

a reply to: chuck258

You are false in your confidence, the Log Cabin Republicans played their hand in gaining marriage equality....are they part of this Leftest Agenda who pretend to be Republican?

i'm sorry, but why can't people just accept the fact that we fight for Equality...

10 years ago you'd get things like this:
www.livescience.com - Men and Women Really Do Think Differently...

Or this from 10 years ago:
www.sciencedaily.com - Intelligence In Men And Women Is A Gray And White Matter...

This one is from approx 9 years ago:
www.eje-online.org - Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure...

Or maybe this:
www.webmd.com - How Male and Female Brains Differ...

Or:
en.wikipedia.org - Neuroscience of sex differences...

From Dec 2013:
www.theatlantic.com - Male and Female Brains Really Are Built Differently...

Another from 2013:
www.bbc.com - Men and women's brains are 'wired differently'
...

Last year there's this:
www.medicaldaily.com - Brain Facts To Know And Share: Men Have A Lower Percentage Of Gray Matter Than Women ...

Now you get everybody is the same or unidentifiable. So what am I to think? Honestly I have no faith in the results. I'm expect to turn on a dime and throw out everything in the past 10 years? Sorry I can't.

They also just looked at brain structure. What about hormones or neurotransmitters? And they didn't say they foudn no differences in males and females. They mean individuals:

To test the theory, Joel and her colleagues looked for differences in brain scans taken from 1400 people aged between 13 and 85. The team looked for variations in the size of brain regions as well as the connections between them. In total, the group identified 29 brain regions that generally seem to be different sizes in self-identified males and females. These include the hippocampus, which is involved in memory, and the inferior frontal gyrus, which is thought to play a role in risk aversion.

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

So what they're saying is when you average out all of hte structures for self-described male or female persons you can squeeze out gender differences, but if you look at an individual brain it's less clear.

So what I"m getting from this study is if our appearance was the same then men would sometimes have breasts and be fragile with wide hips and sometimes woman would have more muscular frames and have wider shoulders and no breasts. However, woman would be more likely to have breast and men more likely to not have them. So, at least based on appearnace, a woman could look like a man. Similarly, based on appearance, a male brain could look female.

originally posted by: AudioOne
I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle. I understand that culture has a way of becoming invisible, to where even open minded parents may not realize they are influencing a gender binary upon their toddlers (there was a study on this actually.) So it may be impossible to ever to study a baby human's predilections in an environment removed of cultural influence and thus gender binary. These binaries also may become a source of persecution to people. So this is an important topic in trying to set up a more enlightened human culture.

I can't speak much to your thoughts on academia other than to say they are interesting observations. As to this being a topic necessary for a more enlightened human culture, I couldn't agree more.

Pointing out parental reinforcement of the gender binary is pretty obvious from birth. Pink for girls, blue for boys and so on. There are cultural expectations to be met and after all, most parents want their male children to grow up and be boys and vice versa. The notion that gender is purely a social construct is flawed but certainly not without merit as one cannot deny one’s culturally influenced sexed identification within the context of a social grouping. But for some children, this social programming is in complete contrast with their innate nature or subjective sense of self no matter how persistent or rigorous it is.

Does this opposition to the expected binary come from physiology, neurological or chemical influence or failure somehow to correctly interpret social conditioning toward the binary norm? In some cases, despite diligent and relentless parental effort by anecdote and example, a child will be persistent in cross-gender identification in contrast to their assigned sex. Whether one can pinpoint the cause of this to be biological, psychological or something more esoteric such as spiritual really means little from a transgender perspective but does give the third person view and particularly parents wondering what they did wrong something else to chew on.

Point is, even in the best well-intentioned family, social environment and conditioning scenarios and lacking pathological genetic, hormonal or intersex conditions, transgender and transsexual individuals and gender non-conformity exists in children and adults. Why it does is really secondary to what we can do as humanity or a culture to integrate and accommodate people that do lie between or cross the extremes of the binary and work to end this as a source of persecution.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime

www.nature.com...

That's a fascinating article -- thanks for posting it.

Multiple Genders have existed throughout various cultures and were not only recognized but celebrated and seen as Special and Gifted. not "Mental Defects" or ""Illness"

Very true... I don't understand why this isn't a bigger part of the national dialogue. I just recently learned that the Navajos have long identified four genders, and these "Two Spirit" people are not just accepted but also respected within the society. There are the Guevedoces, children who are girls by all measures -- until they grow a penis at 12; but again, the society understands the phenomenom, can identify them (usually? often?) at an early age, and accept and respect them. As we better know and understand our physical bodies and physiological processes, we better know and understand that it's not as clear-cut and set in stone as it once seemed. There are many factors at play that can influence and even alter what we call gender. Why do we play deaf, dumb and blind??? (Nevermind, I know... better to divide and conquer.)

The really weird thing to me is that I feel like this is the twice-baked version of the women's lib movement in the '60s and '70s all over again, arguing about what a man or woman "really" is, when in the end, we're just people -- the same and different all at the same time.

Here's a study from Dec 2013 (more links in my previous post):
www.theguardian.com - Male and female brains wired differently, scans reveal ...

Ragini Verma, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, said the greatest surprise was how much the findings supported old stereotypes, with men's brains apparently wired more for perception and co-ordinated actions, and women's for social skills and memory, making them better equipped for multitasking.

Ok I'm done for now. I hope I've made my point that 1 study doesn't erase 10+ years of research easily available to anybody who can google.

Look, I know appearance-wise there's not a lot of hard differences between the genders in a given individual. A male brain can look like a female brain, at least in large part. But when you average all of the males and females you can see the differences. That's what it boils down to. It does mean however we shouldn't stereotype a persons's brain based on their outside appearance. For example, if they look female, don't assume their brain looks female.

a reply to: jonnywhite

Just an FYI

Just gonna point out this is relatively new science.

Date of reports is important. And often, I've found, reports are rehashing previous data from earlier reports.

Its good to check "New" info to make sure its actually new.

Its also good to research who wrote the report. I've found a lot of reports that seem genuine, to be from Christian groups.

a reply to: Annee
Fine hte direct link is here (Nov 2013):
www.pnas.org - Sex differences in the structural connectome of the human brain...

.....The results establish that male brains are optimized for intrahemispheric and female brains for interhemispheric communication. The developmental trajectories of males and females separate at a young age, demonstrating wide differences during adolescence and adulthood. The observations suggest that male brains are structured to facilitate connectivity between perception and coordinated action, whereas female brains are designed to facilitate communication between analytical and intuitive processing modes.

Note there were no or little observed differences in connectivity between 8 and 13. After that the differences became wider.

I do wonder if this is connected to other things like cultural or environmental things, since hte differences were not (apparently) statistically significant early on. For example, if a person does a lot of physical actions in life then maybe it will make their brain look more like a male? Maybe people do what society expects them to do.

Some of this might be tied to how testosterone/estrogen influence things. Maybe as people reach puberty there's more of an influence. However, note that since the brain is at least somewhat plasticy, if you change hte hormones--like M2F transsexual--this can in turn alter the brain in adulthood:
www.eje-online.org - Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure,,,

originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Annee
Fine hte direct link is here:
www.pnas.org - Sex differences in the structural connectome of the human brain...

NOTE: I was just gonna add - - - your report from Ragini Verma - - - seems legit.

I've just been following this stuff for so long, I look for the "holes" and pitfalls.

a reply to: wasaka

Hey a quick note of thanks. I have spent years studying in the east, but I have allowed my own evolving biases to hold court on this issue. Seriously. ..thank you you slapped my hand where it was needed.

a reply to: wasaka

Yes, gender is binary. You can be 00, 01, 10 or 11. You can't just use 1 for male and 0 for female. That has other connotations.

originally posted by: wasaka
This quote stood out to me from the recent article:

Although the team only looked at brain structure, and not function, their findings suggest that we all lie along a continuum of what are traditionally viewed as male and female characteristics. “The study is very helpful in providing biological support for something that we’ve known for some time – that gender isn’t binary,” says Meg John Barker, a psychologist at the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK.

The findings will still come as a surprise to many, including scientists, says Bruce McEwen at the Rockefeller University in New York. “We are beginning to realise the complexity of what we have traditionally understood to be ‘male’ and ‘female’, and this study is the first step in that direction,” he says. “I think it will change peoples’ minds.”

Genderless future

Joel envisions a future in which individuals are not so routinely classified based on gender alone. “We separate girls and boys, men and women all the time,” she says. “It’s wrong, not just politically, but scientifically – everyone is different.”

Joel’s findings can be used to help many people understand the non-binary nature of gender, says Barker. After all, some people don’t identify as either male or female, and others feel their gender identity shift over time. “It’s a shame that people’s experience alone isn’t enough for us to recognise as a society that non-binary gender is legitimate.”

“We need to start thinking a lot more carefully about how much weight we give to gender as a defining feature of human beings, and stop asking for it in situations where it simply isn’t relevant,” says Barker.

So I guess that means no queer brains either?
Perhaps it takes a queer brain to publish a study like this.

What do you say, ATS, is gender binary, or not?

Only Yes or No will accepted as an answer =)

What do you mean by 'queer brains'? Are you being pejorative towards gay people?

i thought gender was what you had between your legs, not what you felt you identified as. genetically speaking arent the only genders male, female, and hermaphrodite?

The really weird thing to me is that I feel like this is the twice-baked version of the women's lib movement in the '60s and '70s all over again, arguing about what a man or woman "really" is, when in the end, we're just people -- the same and different all at the same time.

Nice.

We are people.

We are the same and different all at the same time.

It is really just that simple.

My wife in transgender and just the other day we were
walking into a store and someone yell out, "that's a man."

Now this is offensive. It is rude and it is uncalled for.
I had to turn around and walk back out to talk to these
stupid people. I gave the a few choice words, but what
wish I had said is just what you said. "Look, we are all
people. That makes us both similar and dissimilar at
the same time. Just learn to accept it, trans people
are just people. If you can't accept that, then I can
go to my car and get a gun. Do we have a problem?"

Sad that it has to go like that, but sometimes you
have to use a gun to speak for you. The good thing
is I don't own one, but putting the idea into the
persons head is really all that is needed at a time
like that. This is how some people learn, and they
will not learn any other way.

originally posted by: vjr1113
i thought gender was what you had between your legs, not what you felt you identified as. genetically speaking arent the only genders male, female, and hermaphrodite?

Sex is genetic (male/female)
Gender is an expression.

In America we have "the freedom of expression"
protect as the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.

Gender is an expression, meaning it is the persona
of the individual which can be manifest with both
male and female energy.

Sexual orientation is not the same a gender.
But both of these things can be disturbing to some
people because they feel insecure with themselves.

People are just people, we come in different
shapes and sizes, different gender expressions
and in different sexual preferences.

Get over it.

a reply to: wasaka

easy killer. i was just trying to understand this topic a bit better.

i dont care what you identify as but the labels man and woman are there for a reason. no one should ever be ashamed about being a man or a woman even if they dont identify as their actual sex. why would anyone care about someone else's opinion anyways?

a reply to: MoshiachIusDei

I was waiting for someone to ask, and answer is no.

Queer has a meaning apart from being Gay or whatever.
Yes, I was using that word to evoke the double meaning.
It was a shameless attempt to write a good headline.

What I found, is that some people made assumptions
about my point of view based on the headline and
my use of that term. Then they react accordingly.
That you for asking. Thank you for not reacting.

imo we need labels in order to easily identify people, i dont wanna date someone that identifies as a woman but i come to find they have manly parts. or a former man competing with actual females in sports. maybe we need new labels completely. what if i identify as a woman and put on a wig? can i walk into a woman's restroom?

complex questions need complex answers

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Darth_Prime

No, Gender is not Binary, the West are the ones who created a two Gender Binary systemcreated a two Gender Binary system

Really ? I thought evolution did that .Just damn . You have destroyed all my scientific knowledge with one small post..

Question then. If evolution is perfect what about the intersexed hermaphorites? Woudnt if it was a Evolutionary imperative there would not be any of those?

You , yourself know the answer to that...(if you know anything about genetics) and you misspelled that horribly.

Well if everyone was able to be a breeding pair the world would be over populated and could be natural to reduce breedable pairs. but they are technically a third SEX because they have both organs.

That could be true. Biology has not progressed to the point of the answer . I still believe it is some form of natural change , be it genetic , hormonal. It could be a mixture including environment.But the "third sex" as you call it , has been known to be genetics at work and has probably existed as long as mankind has. It is not new , and does not represent some form of evolution.

Peace

a reply to: wasaka

You're right -- that's just rude. Like you and your wife needed to him to tell you anything? I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Rude is just rude. No excuse for it.

Good luck to you and you wife

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: wasaka

i dont care what you identify as but the labels man and woman are there for a reason. no one should ever be ashamed about being a man or a woman even if they dont identify as their actual sex. why would anyone care about someone else's opinion anyways?

Sure, it easy to say why care about the opinions of others, but in the real word Trans people face the highest rate of suicide.

I think that illustrates the point that you don't know what these people experience. If you had to face ridicule and rejection daily as they do, then you might find yourself thinking about how to end your own life.

If you found be the authentic gender expression so difficult it cost you friends and family, and even the ability to have a job... where would you turn? Follow me here... What if being a sex worker placed your life in danger? Then one day... BANG your dead at 23 because the guy to whom you just gave a blow job has just put a bullet in your head instead of $20 buck in your pocket.

This is exactly how a lot of TRANS girls end up, they often start out in a bad/poor home life, and it only got worse from there. Now do you really think this is a life a person would choose or desire? I think not. This is in fact a life that is manifest by the compulsion of a female energy in a male body (or visa versa). Our society is very harsh on people, and changing gender bring a lot of Toxic Emotions and Psychic Pain to the surface for people.

Yes,it is great that some of us have become strong enough to not care what other say to or about us, to have out grown our childish need for validation... we ought no be so flippant about expecting other people to be like us, they are not. And if your honest with yourself there are still things at 40 year of age that we need and seek validation for. It is therefore unfair to judge other people, and down right wrong/foolish to expect other people to behavior as we would.