Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
Russian pilot says:

“In actual fact there were no warnings at all. Neither through the radio, nor visually, so we did not at any point adjust our course. You need to understand the difference in speed between a tactical bomber like Su-24, and that of the F16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have sat on our wing,” said Murakhtin, who is currently recuperating at Russia’s airbase in Latakia, in northern Syria.

www.rt.com...

Well, I hardly expected to hear "Well, we make short incursions into Turkey all the time. All they do is gripe about it. We know it gets their goat and it's not a big deal. I'm still shocked that they actually went weapons free".

Don't misunderstand me: I don't think this was in anyway wise of the Turks.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Of course they knew it was Russian.

...

Obviously, they were waiting for Russia and fired on them the instant they got.

To be fair, they could have believed it was a Syrian aircraft.

originally posted by: svetlana84
Let s support 'moderate rebels' to get Assad. Upps the 'moderate rebels' are islamic terrorists.
But let us still support them, because they are against the russians, and thats where we started.

NO.

The Russians are right ... I know that the Russians being "right" has more to do with their own agenda, then they wanting to "save the world". But these "terrorists" are a foreign insurgency. The very presence of Russia there, provides a "real" possibility to aid Syria ... if you want to. But first, you must "remove" the foreign insurgency (terrorists) and then call for an election. Sure, Assad will try to fake the outcome ... but the situation is different now, you have the Russians there and they provide a "negotiable" situation.

You ignore this "opportunity" and continue to Libya'ize Syria, you will end up with a nation in ruins for decades to come.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Of course they knew it was Russian.

They wouldn't dare shoot down a US, French or Australian jet if it strayed into their territory for 17seconds - and it could have been anyone of those countries jets as they are all fighting in Syria.

Obviously, they were waiting for Russia and fired on them the instant they got.

Of course they wouldn't NATO jets have a friend or foe system they would have known it was from a friendly nation. This is just a dumb comment with no understanding of military procedures. First are you aware that Turkey and syria have destroyed each others planes in this same area. It's a hot zone between the two. Both have had fighters shot down by the other. Did they identify the aircraft as Russian depends on if Russia had their trans ponder active. I doubt that so that would leave did the jets enter visual range. If they did then they would have known had they just fired when they had lock they wouldn't have known what they hit.

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: svetlana84
Let s support 'moderate rebels' to get Assad. Upps the 'moderate rebels' are islamic terrorists.
But let us still support them, because they are against the russians, and thats where we started.

NO.

The Russians are right ... I know that the Russians being "right" has more to do with their own agenda, then they wanting to "save the world". But these "terrorists" are a foreign insurgency. The very presence of Russia there, provides a "real" possibility to aid Syria ... if you want to. But first, you must "remove" the foreign insurgency (terrorists) and then call for an election. Sure, Assad will try to fake the outcome ... but the situation is different now, you have the Russians there and they provide a "negotiable" situation.

You ignore this "opportunity" and continue to Libya'ize Syria, you will end up with a nation in ruins for decades to come.

The Russians have no negotiation power in syria. They are there as guests of assaad. They are only alowed to have their naval base in syria as long as assaad is in power. If a rebel group took over their first action would be to tell Russia to leave syria.

a reply to: dragonridr

If a rebel group took over their first action would be to tell Russia to leave syria.

And Russia says, 'No, no, we have lease! We stay!'

What are the rebels going to do? Attack Russia? I don't think so.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: dragonridr

If a rebel group took over their first action would be to tell Russia to leave syria.

And Russia says, 'No, no, we have lease! We stay!'

What are the rebels going to do? Attack Russia? I don't think so.

P

Remove them same as Russia did to the Ukrainian basses in crimea. Lease doesn't mean a thing when the dictator is overthrown. The lease wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on if assaad loses control of syria.

a reply to: spy66

Unless you're going to claim radar and missiles work differently for Turkey than everyone else it's simple fact.

They MIGHT have been able to identify it as an Su-24 with a discriminator but even if they did, Syria has them too so that doesn't identify it as Russian.

The Sidewinder has a minimum range that must be met to hit a target. At less than one mile you can't read the markings on a fighter sized aircraft. The minimum range of a Sidewinder is in excess of a mile. Unless the F-16s had an optical targeting pod there was no way they were seeing Russian markings.

Just found this: He said she said kinda deal.
newsletter.thaivisa.com...
Russian co-pilot says his plane downed “without warning” by Turks...

"There was no contact whatsoever"

MOSCOW: -- Further fog has risen over the downing of the Russian Sukhoi on the Syrian border, allegedly in Turkish airspace, by the Turks. The Russian co-pilot reports no warnings were given.

The Turks have said 10 warnings were given over a five-minute period before a 17-second violation of its airspace. US monitoring confirmed hearing them.

Now pictures identified as Captain Konstantin Murahtin have been released from his base in Syria.

“There were no warnings. Not via the radio, not visually. There was no contact whatsoever. That`s why we were keeping our combat course as usual,” he told Russian media.

Also if Turkey wants to play rough then it looks like Putin has a response:
newsletter.thaivisa.com...

Putin sends air-defense missiles to Syria to deter Turkey
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV

MOSCOW (AP) — In a move raising the potential threat of a Russia-NATO conflict, Russia said Wednesday it will deploy long-range air defense missiles to its base in Syria and destroy any target that may threaten its warplanes following the downing of a Russian military jet by Turkey.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

Unless you're going to claim radar and missiles work differently for Turkey than everyone else it's simple fact.

They MIGHT have been able to identify it as an Su-24 with a discriminator but even if they did, Syria has them too so that doesn't identify it as Russian.

The Sidewinder has a minimum range that must be met to hit a target. At less than one mile you can't read the markings on a fighter sized aircraft. The minimum range of a Sidewinder is in excess of a mile. Unless the F-16s had an optical targeting pod there was no way they were seeing Russian markings.

At less than 1 mile - 17 seconds incursion - Then if no threat was indicated/posed, no attack occurred or damage was done by the aircraft entering Turkish airspace and all indications are that they are leaving same space, why not just let the targets go in this circumstance. Later complain and warn the offending nation that this will be met with force in the future. Oh, sorry, my mistake, they couldn't do this as they took the shot because they couldn't identify the Russian aircraft as they left the Turkish airspace.

Kind regards,

Bally

a reply to: bally001

As for why they did it, you'd have to ask them. I'm not arguing that they were right or wrong. Both sides pushed things and this was the result, right or wrong.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Cheers and thankyou zaphod,

Good reply,

Kind regards,

Bally

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: svetlana84
Let s support 'moderate rebels' to get Assad. Upps the 'moderate rebels' are islamic terrorists.
But let us still support them, because they are against the russians, and thats where we started.

NO.

The Russians are right ... I know that the Russians being "right" has more to do with their own agenda, then they wanting to "save the world". But these "terrorists" are a foreign insurgency. The very presence of Russia there, provides a "real" possibility to aid Syria ... if you want to. But first, you must "remove" the foreign insurgency (terrorists) and then call for an election. Sure, Assad will try to fake the outcome ... but the situation is different now, you have the Russians there and they provide a "negotiable" situation.

You ignore this "opportunity" and continue to Libya'ize Syria, you will end up with a nation in ruins for decades to come.

Maybe me little rant was misunderstood. I tried to show the history leading up to this in a sarcasstic way from a US point of view.

I am absolutely on Russia's side on this one. US and Turkey are playing a very stupid and dangerous game here. They support every evil force as long as they are against Assad. And they have (as usual) no plan for the day after Assad. They still dont realise, the day Assad falls ISIS will be in Power.


Russia on the other hand did put down a transition plan. Putin is fighting the Terrorists and plans for transition which involves a democratic election of a new syrian president.

In my books the only way to go.

Edit/add: Source Russian transition plan (in german) deutsche-wirtschafts-nac... hrichten.de/2015/11/26/putin-stellt-harte-fragen-wussten-die-usa-von-dem-abschuss/

a reply to: svetlana84

What, America, planning, for the future!? Are you out of your mind? As if that's ever going to happen.

a reply to: bally001

Id say warning the Russians didn't work or they wouldn't have flown onto thier airspace. They all ready issued several warnings to moscow. Moscow chose to ignore those warnings I'm not sure as to why. The only conclusion I can come up with is Putin wanted to find out where the limit was? Or had decided that he could get them to back down and tuck tail. Either he was wrong about Turkey backing down or he intended to see if they would attack.

Obviously continually pushing the limits with Turkey was a bad idea either way. He really doesn't want to push this further because Turkey can take the next step of not allowing Russian ships to enter the Bosphorus this would be a huge problem for Russian shipping.

a reply to: dragonridr

G'day mate,

Thanks for the reply, I understand that. Just having some trouble comprehending all the aspects and theories posted in this thread which I've been following.

I actually scratched my head which I haven't done since I was a young fella. It's the equivalent of WT?

Kind regards,

Bally

originally posted by: bally001
a reply to: dragonridr

G'day mate,

Thanks for the reply, I understand that. Just having some trouble comprehending all the aspects and theories posted in this thread which I've been following.

I actually scratched my head which I haven't done since I was a young fella. It's the equivalent of WT?

Kind regards,

Bally

Throw in one more fact into the mix and it makes some sense. Erdogan and Putin have similar personalities. Both want to be seen as strongmen who are adored by their people while the oposition says the same thing they are returning democracy. Both are classic dictators and have a cult of personality. These similarities meaning neither one can be perceived as weak and here we are direct confrontation. What I'm worried about is these two keep uping the stakes and others can be dragged in

Erdogan’s Son Real ISIS Oil Minister.

Ankara defends ISIS, Turkish officials have financial interest in oil trade with group - PM Medvedev


Cheap Syrian oil that ISIL terrorists trafficked to Turkey may be the real reason for the attack on the Russian Su-24 bomber morning, November 24th. Reported LifeNews.


According to the newspaper, the son of Turkish President Bilal Erdogan linked to ISIL terrorists, and he controls the Syrian oil flows to Turkey. It is the fact that the Russian aircraft carried out massive strikes on oil fields militants, the Turkish authorities became the last straw.

Many experts constantly say about the top of the Turkish authorities who cooperate with the ISIL militants . In the media there were even photographs of the son-heir of the Turkish leader posing next to the leaders of the “Islamic state.”

www.veteranstoday.com...

Erdogans son making deals with ISIS.

And now: Erdogan presented his new cabinet. Context is that he won the recent elections, just after a suspicious bomb attack.

Guess who is becoming the energy-minister? Nope, not Erdogans son. But close, very close. Its his son-in-law Berat Albayrak.

Link in german: deutsche-wirtschafts-nachri... chten.de/2015/11/26/erdogans-schwiegersohn-wird-tuerkischer-energieminister/

in english. news.yahoo.com... -key-post-152529657.html