I have to change my mind on the ME...Again!

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: nwtrucker

And the Taliban and AQ have roots in the US arming and funding them.

You can think my post is bull all out want but the fact of the matter is that Iraq didn't want us there anymore.

I doubt we would want a foreign force in our nation blowing up our people either.

Where does the African nations under attack fit under that? Pakistan? Mali? The Indian terror acts? The Philippines?

Depends on who you ask, to me it is just them trying to attack who ever you can.
Others say they are western targets like the American hotel hit.

Not sure you can smell bull if it was under your shoe.

Oh yes, your point:

"And the Taliban and AQ have roots in the US arming and funding them."

You can thank your Obama for that one...

a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I can thank every president for that one, you trying to single our obama makes sense though.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes they do, you keep saying that Iraq asked us to stay but yet even the link you provided says that is false. Which means mine is more valid until you can back that claim up.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Sigh. Spin. The idea is dialogue. There will be disagreement, per force.

It isn't some link contest. It is debate, discussion of different point of views. I suspect there are enough shills out there that have plenty of links to back up their spin. (Not saying you fall into that category.)

I base mine on logic, experience and, I believe, an honest assessment. These ARE my views, right or wrong. I require no re-enforcement from links. I use them to put forth new data/ideas. No more than that.

My views on Iraq are based on logic. That the then current gov't of Iraq could see where it was all going. A U.S. pull-out almost assured a loss of power for those the U.S. were supporting in that gov't. To suggest otherwise is creative, but not logical.

Even I supported that withdrawal as I said in the OP. Largely in agreement that Iraq and Iraqis should take care of their own business instead of the U.S..

I was wrong. That agreed-upon withdrawal was premature. The Iraqi gov't knew it, so did we. Obama ignored it as well. Perhaps for the same reason I supported it...perhaps not. It resulted in the latest version of ME terrorism, Isis.

If the Iraqis had taken care of business, there would be no Isis. They hold as much responsibility, if not more, than the U.S.. IMO.

Back to the OP. Inviting/opening the door for Isis entering the U.S. forces me to re-evaluate my hands-off decision. Hands-off with incursion into the U.S. IS INSANITY. Things will get nothing but worse. To what degree, I know not, nor do I care. Worse is sufficient for me to change my mind. Flatten them, boots on the ground with an extended stay or lose.

Losing is unacceptable. That leaves two options.

If you have a better idea, I'm all ears.

So far, all the thread has received is "we caused it" or we can't kill anymore or outright attacks directed at me. (Yawn)

No real solutions, however. No rebuttals as to the current situation. NO OTHER ANSWERS.

I couldn't care less who started it, when it began, who's funding it.

Slobber-knock the bastards....then point fingers all day, if that floats your boat.

originally posted by: aorAki

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Danowski

It's a bit simplistic, but the 'cause' is insanity. It afflicts the whole race.

What do you mean by this?

When you say 'race', what are you referring to?

The human race, of course.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

There's a country already there with a coalition fighting on the ground.....

RUSSIA

And it's president has been actively seeking US cooperation. Yes America it's time to wake to a new day and a new future, where instead of your daft impotent president burying his head in the sand they actually give Putin a call and work out a plan together and get over this Assad must go mentality that is ultimately preventing anything useful from happening.

It took a horrible attack in Paris for France to change its mind and start to talk with Russia. I really hope for America's sake it does not have to get to that before you decide what you're doing is not working.

originally posted by: markosity1973
There's a country already there with a coalition fighting on the ground.....

RUSSIA

And it's president has been actively seeking US cooperation. Yes America it's time to wake to a new day and a new future, where instead of your daft impotent president burying his head in the sand they actually give Putin a call and work out a plan together and get over this Assad must go mentality that is ultimately preventing anything useful from happening.

It took a horrible attack in Paris for France to change its mind and start to talk with Russia. I really hope for America's sake it does not have to get to that before you decide what you're doing is not working.

No argument from me.

a reply to: nwtrucker

So you are calling my actual sources of the then current gov saying they did not want us there as creative and spin....

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: nwtrucker

So you are calling my actual sources of the then current gov saying they did not want us there as creative and spin....

There was a point where that was the case. It was well before the 'rise' of Isis, I believe. Of course, having a fixed withdrawal date allowed the formation to occur within those supposed Iraqi generals.

Does it really make any sense that, later, when the withdrawal was occurring and Isis began it's moves that there wouldn't be second thoughts about the U.S. withdrawal?

There are multiple reports of requests for delays and more support.

Where I see it as spin is saying that there was nothing that the U.S. could have done to derail this development or that the gov't of Iraq wouldn't have accepted it forthwith. Bush may have made the original agreement, but with the caveat that only if the situation merited withdrawal....agreement or not. To that degree, Obama has some culpability as well.

The link I provided definitely stated there was a request for more support. There are others as well. Saying it doesn't speaks to me spin. At least a distortion.

Once again, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, fault, blame, culpablity....the works. The OP is about the options open to us.

It is ONLY MY VIEW OF IT. Again, I'm all ears if you have a better solution. I'd love a better one....

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: nwtrucker

Yes they do, you keep saying that Iraq asked us to stay but yet even the link you provided says that is false. Which means mine is more valid until you can back that claim up.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

Backing up what he says here on ATS is not his strong suit and if you had opinions like his, it wouldn't be yours either.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: aorAki

Fine point, philosophically. If I have my druthers, it'll be them and not mine.

Just my bias, I suppose. Then again, I suspect you'd modify your views on that if you or yours were threatened, methinks.

Fine for a discussion...otherwise I prefer lock and load....

Part of the reason I think you are missing the big picture is this attitude, your mindset is lock and load...what I get from your thread is your mind is made up already....please correct me if I am wrong

And may I ask why you believe you and yours are in danger ? I assume that you believe you are based on the quoted statement from you above.....

The wests meddling in the middle east is now coming back to bite us in the ass....these people did not just randomly wake up one day and say "we hate the west let's go and kill them "

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: nwtrucker

Im glad you accept Bush was a idiot to invade Iraq.

After that though?

To be honest I dont know what was the right or wrong. We were dammed if we stayed in iraq and dammed it seems now we left.

The event leading up to today were set in motion the day we declared war on Saddam. Not sure we could of avoided ISIS after that, though bombing libya didn't help.

As you know I am not a war hawk and can be about as anti intervention you can get.

But ISIS? Well I just cant see us avoiding military action now. Whether we like or not we are at war with them it seems. Hopefully if we do go in we take the gloves off and exterminate them to the last jihadi scum bag a d only leave when the jobs 100% done. Then once left never go back to the ME.

O and cut off all support to the dammed Saudis.

Excepting your first line, I agree.

O come on!

If he had not invaded iraq most the crap going on never would have happend!

And Iraq was never the US and UK buisness!