Plato knew? How?

In Plato's 'Five Dialogues' there is a point in 'Phaedo' where Socrates is telling Simmias what the world looked like from above...

Quote;
"Well then, my friend, in the first place it is said that the earth, looked at from above, looks like those spherical balls made up of twelve pieces of leather; it is multicoloured..."

It goes on to specifically talk about what the colours of the earth are, but my interest is this...How did he know? Why is it that someone living 2500 years ago knew the earth was round, like a ball? And why is it that it took a few brave souls burning at the stake to get that knowledge back into our minds? Are there any other examples of ancient knowledge which seems out of place as this does?

just wondering...
btw...i got this out of his book, so...sorry, no link.

masqua


[edit on 4-1-2005 by masqua]

Can you tell me where it says this? I searched using various words, but nothing like your quote comes up.




classics.mit.edu...

could it be the result of translations? I know ancient texts are often interpreted differently by people.

If you have your 'Five Dialogues" it should be Phaedo entry 110c in your book.
The copy I'm holding is the G.M.A.Grube translation published by Hackett Publishing Co. out of Indianapolis.
I doubt very much if the interpretation has been corrupted that much, Crakeur, but if you have evidence that is so, I'm sure every university teaching philosophy would certainly like to know.

Originally posted by masqua
If you have your 'Five Dialogues" it should be Phaedo entry 110c in your book.
The copy I'm holding is the G.M.A.Grube translation published by Hackett Publishing Co. out of Indianapolis.
I doubt very much if the interpretation has been corrupted that much, Crakeur, but if you have evidence that is so, I'm sure every university teaching philosophy would certainly like to know.

It's not in there that I can find


classics.mit.edu...

netstorm...I checked the url you provided, and it seems to end a bit early...the part I'm referring to is very near the end.
Perhaps if you looked at another source, it may be complete...
I'll do a search as well...after supper...lol

[edit on 4-1-2005 by masqua]

This?

"That, said Simmias, will be enough.
Well, then, he said, my conviction is that the earth is a round body in the center of the heavens, and therefore has no need of air or any similar force as a support, but is kept there and hindered from falling or inclining any way by the equability of the surrounding heaven and by her own equipoise. For that which, being in equipoise, is in the center of that which is equably diffused, will not incline any way in any degree, but will always remain in the same state and not deviate. And this is my first notion."

or this?

The tale, my friend, he said, is as follows: In the first place, the earth, when looked at from above, is like one of those balls which have leather coverings in twelve pieces, and is of divers colors, of which the colors which painters use on earth are only a sample.


www.greece.com...

It doesn't really specify that Socrates (or Plato) is the author of the "tale" Socrates just says "The tale, my friend, he said. is as follows"

But you have a valid point as to why it would be written that way. Perhaps after traveling the world and seeing the vast colors of the world, and perhaps after seeing the full moon being round he "assumed" the earth was round also....

Try this url...you should find it very near the bottom...
www.constitution.org...


[edit on 4-1-2005 by masqua]

I was particularly taken by the second, netstorm, in that it is a singular vision and has no fanciful speculations attached. It is a certainty that the notion has come from others...(perhaps Solon or some other which travelled abroad?), but what fascinates me is that this notion existed at all.

Originally posted by masqua
I was particularly taken by the second, netstorm, in that it is a singular vision and has no fanciful speculations attached. It is a certainty that the notion has come from others...(perhaps Solon or some other which travelled abroad?), but what fascinates me is that this notion existed at all.

I agree, makes you wonder if perhaps Columbus and others did not read Plato, and thought... "maybe the world is round", also makes you wonder if they had help from somewhere/someone. Sadly, we will never know.....

While I agree that we may never know, netstorm, there are some hopeful lights on the horizon.

I'm reading Richard Rudgley's new book ' The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age' right now. It's a very dry bit of reading, but there are some amazing revelations in it. His credentials are very good and I'm hoping there will be something that I can bring into this forum through the exercise. Just the first 50 pages are fascinating.

The entire focus of his book is to dispel the ongoing notion that prehistory is full of hairy chaps dragging their unfortunate womenfolk by the hair. I'll keep the board informed.

On Columbus...I bet he read the Norse Sagas because they certainly were here first. There is also some tantalizing hints that the Templars (through architecture and markings on stone) were here on North America in the 11th on 12th centuries.

Anyways, what I'm really looking for in this thread is any other examples of the knowledge of the true shape of earth...in particular, from Egypt or Sumeria...but also from the Far East and South America.

masqua

[edit on 4-1-2005 by masqua]

True shape of Earth was known long ago -I believe Arabs writings about Earth being a sphere were the oldest (read it somewhere, cannot find the link right now ). In the time of Plato an idea of "round Earth" was known in ancient Greece:

During the 300s bc, the Greek philosopher and scientist Aristotle became the first person to demonstrate that the earth was round. He based his hypothesis on the arguments that all matter tends to fall together toward a common center, that the earth throws a circular shadow on the moon during an eclipse, and that in traveling from north to south new constellations become visible and familiar ones disappear. The Greek geographer Eratosthenes was the first person to accurately calculate the circumference of the earth.

History of Geography

But I think you are trying to find out if it is possible that Plato had seen Earth from above, right?

[edit on 4-1-2005 by jazzgul]

There's this

"SUMERIAN TEXT SHOWS DRAWINGS OF SOLAR SYSTEM."

"2000 B.C. PERU'S INCA CIVILIZATION. PRE-INCA SAID THE GODS WERE FROM THE STAR SYSTEM "PLEIDES" JUST AS THE SUMERIANS DID. INCA RUINS HAVE BEEN FOUND AT 13,000 FEET, WITH ONE STONE WEIGHING 20,000 TONS! AN IMPOSSIBLE FEAT FOR HUMANS! LEGEND TELLS OF SPACESHIPS THAT CAME FROM THE STARS. INCA ORNAMENTS OF "PLATNIUM" WERE FOUND. TEXT REVEALS THE INCA'S KNEW THE EARTH WAS ROUND."
--I can't find so far any other reference to this, still searching and I do not know the validity of the website

www.geocities.com...

You can draw your own conclusions from this site....

The sphericity of Earth was known to the Greeks long before 300 B.C., and it appeared in the writings of Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), who was summarizing old knowledge. Indeed, Eratosthenes's excellent and famous measurement of Earth's circumference dates from 250 B.C. or so, long before Ptolemy's time.

www.textbookleague.org...

And this

"Is it possible that people studied sciences like astronomy thousands of years before telescopes or satellites were even dreamed of? Historians sometimes debate whether or not the ancient Egyptians could have known that the earth is a sphere."

www.worldtrek.org...

Thanks for those url's, netstorm and jazzgul...I appreciate it. I'm seeing quite a few clues for me to follow up on those 4 sites. Looks like I'll have to get 'googling'.

About wondering if Plato saw the world from orbit...no, i doubt that, but somehow he found out the truth and was convinced of it or he wouldn't have written it into his dialogues.

I'm aware of the numerous stone observatories that our most distant relatives had used to watch the heavens and record the great cycles like the Mayan calendar... as well as marking the seasons with the rising sun.

The Egyptians also marked 'great cycles' of precession by noting which star system was above the rising sun in the east.

That is where we got our astrological signs from, btw...but I'm sure you already knew that.

There are several very good books on that subject in my collection...these stone observatories are all over the earth and date back to prehistoric times.

You know, the worst part about reading books is that I can't provide links to show my sources and I can't very well ask people to buy them so that they can see for themselves.

So, I'll quote accurately from the texts and back them up with googled sites if I can...if I find any more of these confirmed instances of prehistoric knowledge of the shape of the earth, I'll pop them into this thread.

thanks, masqua

He probably used math to figure it out

Originally posted by masqua
How did he know? Why is it that someone living 2500 years ago knew the earth was round, like a ball?

Because some of the people back then used logic and rational thinking and experimentation to figure it out.

And why is it that it took a few brave souls burning at the stake to get that knowledge back into our minds?

Because a lot of people abandoned rational thinking and science.

Are there any other examples of ancient knowledge which seems out of place as this does?

Hero, a greek, had a 'steam engine', a metal hollow ball that had two vents and would spin when water was heated into steam. Apparently it might've been used to open large doors and such.

Here's a website you might be interested in about ancient greek mechanisms including the steam engine by Heron.
www.athensnews.gr...

Originally posted by Nygdan
Hero, a greek, had a 'steam engine', a metal hollow ball that had two vents and would spin when water was heated into steam. Apparently it might've been used to open large doors and such.

Thats very interesting, did Hero happend to publich schematics for this device? I'm leaning towards a no. Its amazing how many people died as heretics in the name of science. Goes to show how much relegion can hold us back..

home.entouch.net...

Have a look here for some other interesting human milestones.

Originally posted by Linux

Originally posted by Nygdan
Hero, a greek, had a 'steam engine', a metal hollow ball that had two vents and would spin when water was heated into steam. Apparently it might've been used to open large doors and such.

Thats very interesting, did Hero happend to publich schematics for this device? I'm leaning towards a no.

Why? He lived in classical greece, they tended not to execute heretics in large pruges.

Its amazing how many people died as heretics in the name of science.

Huh?
You mean died because they were being scientific and it was perceived as heresy?

Thanks again for the continued feedback...
Nygdan...in the url which IKnowNothing provided is an illustration of that steam engine you mentioned.
Linux...that is a wealth of information indeed...lots of different ways to follow up in that list.
Thanks