'Innocent Until Proven Muslim' conference in Australia

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

If you're a peace-loving human that wishes no harm upon any other, I could not give a fat rats ass where you come from - you have my blessing.

As you've been here for 122 posts and 2+ months may I suggest you familiarize yourself with my posting history - there you will find all the consistency you are looking for.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

My problem with Islam is the doctrine of the faith, there isn't as many redeeming qualities that Christianity or other relgions have within the Text(give unto caesar what is his), or even Buddhism which preaches love and compassion. Not to say that Islam has zero redeeming qualities.however the doctrine that say's jihad and martyrdom are prized and sought after, makes it as a whole, none compatible with the western secular world.

there are without a doubt a peaceful majority, however the numbers of strict Islamists who will not blow up your buildings, instead who will use political maneuvering to institute Islamic state and sharia law rulings is staggering, then to a lesser extent but still a large number the jihadi terrorists who will cut your head off on H.D.T.V whilst your family begs for your life, or blow themselves up in a crowded place all in the name of a doctorine that has a straight arrow to the Koran and its teachings.

So until these folks as a majority, have a renaissance,and abandon many of their core doctorines as a whole, they will be incompatible; and the west will be pushed into a larger war, this is not hyperbole or fear mongering it is the truth, many here over the years who have been actively involved make no excuses for Islam anymore.

You fear bigotry and racism so much (and btw that's a great quality wishing for equality and being loving and kind to all people) that you cannot call a spade a spade. I am atheist, and also I agree with the liberal principals of the west however i see an incompatibility with those principals and those who practice the strictest tenants or Islam. They as a whole must move to moderation, lest the whole world continues to overwhelming view Islam as a blight on humanity

originally posted by: laminatedsoul

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

That's what I am trying to figure out. What exactly is your purpose for immigrating if you have no intention of assimilating?

There are only two alternatives. You assimilate or you change Australia to be like the country you left.

If they admit they have no intention on assimilating, that is worrisome.

It's an interesting question, did those who colonised Australia assimilate into the Aboriginal culture - no, of course they didn't because they believed theirs to be superior.

Ahh so because a few hundred years ago people came here and did not take up boomerangs and nomadic lifestyle, we should just sit back and let Australia be overtaken by another foreign culture that has no intention of being part of the country they chose to move to.

Got it. Sounds stupid to me, but that's the entire basis of your logic.

That wasn't what I was suggesting, I was raising the point of assimilation. Australia is like every country - cultures come and become part of the national identity - some people on here seem to be suggesting that people who follow the faith of Islam should be the exception - of course, some are saying it in milder terms than others.

Given that it wasn't until the 1970's that Australia ended it's government policy of a 'white Australia' immigration policy (although I do note that this was based on skin colour, not religion, although I imagine at the time it would have been assumed white = non muslim, it's fairly hard to deny a government condoned racist policy being in place less than a generation or so ago so I would have thought people would approach this subject with sensitivity.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

My two cents....

It's so bizarre to me that common sense has seemed to have left the building for so many people.

I struggle to wrap my mind around some people thinking that "assimilation" is both a bad thing and absolute. When people of a host country expect assimilation, they don't expect 100% conformity to ALL customs, only 100% conformity to the law.

Example: If someone from Nation X enters Nation Y, and they want to have family and friends over to celebrate Nation X's independence day, thats completely fine.... just don't expect Nation Y to make it a national holiday.

Example: If a guest family wants to keep their women wrapped up in Burkas, thats fine. When it gets to a point that schools send letters home to family's warning them to dress their daughters more conservatively so they don't "offend" or "provoke" the guests... then there is a problem. Also, on this same example, you can wear whatever you like but if you need to expose your face for a drivers license photo... that's NOT discrimination.

Final thoughts, it's not up to to host country to keep the trouble-makers under control (outside of law enforcement). It's up to the guests as a whole. If they stay silent and by default give the impression that the entirety of the group is nothing but trouble, a guest nation has every right to shut the door to the lot of them.

a reply to: uncommitted

some people on here seem to be suggesting that people who follow the faith of Islam should be the exception

Isn't it amazing? And where are women? American women? British women? Australian and Canadian women? Women who hate and despise sexism, and have fought and still fight for equal rights? And yet melt all over themselves defending this sexist and cruel religion in which women are second class citizens, and anyone who denies that is a fool, and yet, not a peep from them. Who know perfectly well they mutilate female children sexually due to their own little special brand of tunnel vision. Oh, it's the Muslims! It's okay then. If any other country did that we would sanction the hell out of them for that alone.

I went to you-tube to watch vids of Imam's speaking to women, to try and understand the justification of the oppression of women, and their inferior status within the religion. I listened to multiple accounts of it from different Imams.

What I found and anybody can go watch them and see the justifications: Oh the men put them through all this oppressive crap because they love and treasure them so much. They want to protect them. The punish them with physical assaults because they love them so much and want to help them. The women should accept all these things gratefully. It glorifies Allah.

UTTER BS! Control freaks with massive inferior complexes who have to find somebody to feel superior to, so they choose women and children. I don't care if they worship Allah or Mohammed or joe blow next door. I really could not care less. But as long as they treat women and children the way they do..... I will object to it and to them, and I remain confused as to why so many forward-thinking females pretend like it doesn't happen and everything is just fine and dandy within that culture. Clearly, it isn't.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

If you're a peace-loving human that wishes no harm upon any other, I could not give a fat rats ass where you come from - you have my blessing.

I agree with what you've said in your previous post on this matter, although your philosophy is a bit human-centrist,not that it is inherently bad. I assume based on what you've posted in previous threads that ETs are not excluded from your philosophy?(rhetorical)

As you've been here for 122 posts and 2+ months

Which is why I asked directly instead.

a reply to: angeldoll

You are describing political correctness getting so bloated and overdone that it starts to implode under its own weight.

You are absolutely correct. When the Lego company put out a line of toys called (I believe it was) "Lego Friends" many feminists went nuts because they furthered the stereotype of girls being housewives and clothes shoppers or something like that. But all the Middle East women's issues....? Silence.

a reply to: eluryh22

Yes. I watch Vids on you-tube from a Swede (he's adorable) and he calls it "PCP".

Political Correctness Psychosis.

lol.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

That's what I am trying to figure out. What exactly is your purpose for immigrating if you have no intention of assimilating?

There are only two alternatives. You assimilate or you change Australia to be like the country you left.

If they admit they have no intention on assimilating, that is worrisome.

It's an interesting question, did those who colonised Australia assimilate into the Aboriginal culture - no, of course they didn't because they believed theirs to be superior.

I think you are making his point.

The British came to Australia as conquering invaders. They had no intention of assimilating. They came to take ownership and rule.

I believe he is saying Australians are very aware of how a group can invade and conquer, which is something they are not willing to accept without a fight.

They are not asking people to give up their religions. They are asking them to make a choice on where their loyalties lie. It is sound and very prudent for a country to want its citizens loyal to the country were they live and take refuge. If their loyalties lie outside of the country, and if they refuse to accept the country in which they live, then they are not true citizens of the country, and remain migrants, with loyalty to their home countries.

This of course, in a time of upheaval and unrest, places the non-citizens as suspect and a potential risk. Many came because they were afraid for their safety in their home countries were their true loyalties lie; it would seem a wise choice to return to the place you love, call home and remain loyal, to fight for what you love, than to remain in a place you hate and still risk your safety.

IMHO

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: uncommitted

some people on here seem to be suggesting that people who follow the faith of Islam should be the exception

Isn't it amazing? And where are women? American women? British women? Australian and Canadian women?

I have no idea where you are getting that line of questioning from the comment I made - what did I say that had anything to do with women, or for that matter, men? IT was about some people (as per the op) saying that being muslim left them feeling ostracised - anything else you may have read into my post is your interpretation, not my intention.

a reply to: angeldoll

What I found and anybody can go watch them and see the justifications: Oh the men put them through all this oppressive crap because they love and treasure them so much. They want to protect them. The punish them with physical assaults because they love them so much and want to help them. The women should accept all these things gratefully. It glorifies Allah.

When I as a young girl, quite a few years ago, my father would take us of children hunting with him. There was eight of us at the time, and my father would take us each us, just to spend some one on one time with us. We never actually hunted anything, we mainly walked through the woods and talked. One time we were out together he told me something I will never forget. He said, "You don't deliberately hurt something you love." "If any man hurts you, and tells you he did it because he loves you; RUN!"

My father taught me if a man hurts the one he professes to love, he will keep hurting you until nothing is left of you or he kills you. The excuses many use, is that the way of Islam is pure, and it is the law of Allah or his prophet, so whatever it tells you to do is perfect. So any punishment or killing is the perfect will of Allah, they must conform and it is their duty to punish and or kill as directed by Allah and his prophet.

How do you communicate with this kind of logic? You can't rationalize with an irrational person, so the best you can do is agree to disagree. If they accept these ideals and choose them as their way of life, I have no problems with that. As long as they keep it as their personal choice.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

But the thing is, your father presumably wasn't singling out muslims was he, he meant any man? You are then making the leap when you say 'many use' and targeting that faith when others may do it and use their faith of choice as a flag, or not use a faith at all and use other means to try and empower someone.

People of any faith, and indeed no faith can be evil, there's no arguing that. People of any faith and indeed no faith can also be good - equally, there's no denying that.

a reply to: uncommitted

Given that it wasn't until the 1970's that Australia ended it's government policy of a 'white Australia' immigration policy (although I do note that this was based on skin colour, not religion, although I imagine at the time it would have been assumed white = non muslim, it's fairly hard to deny a government condoned racist policy being in place less than a generation or so ago so I would have thought people would approach this subject with sensitivity.

You must be a young one.

When I was a young girl, we had "White Only" entrances to stores and water fountains. Colored people had to go around the side and up the fire escape, to watch a movie in the balcony.

Racism is still alive and well all around the globe. We live in a world of division. Even among the same groups of people. You have the "white" Chinese, "white" Hispanics, "white" Japanese, etc.. People all over the world are killing themselves with risky toxins, just to lighten their skin a bit more, in hopes of gaining more acceptance. We are always going to find a way to make one group superior to another. Even if we do become cookie cutter cyborgs, there will be those that will be Divergent, and will be outcast. It is just the way we are wired. Somebody has to be the "chosen", the "God" child, the "promised" one. These beliefs give hope; a reason to keep doing the same old pointless crap day in, day out, generation after generation.

That is why assimilation is such a big deal. It is a way of coming together on the basic things. You can maintain your individual preferences, yet still remain a part of a cohesive societal group. This will become critical if the country where you live ever comes under attack from an outside force. You want to be able to know who is enemy and who is foe.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Well I was young in 70's Britain, if that makes me young is very much in the eye of the beholder.

Using the 'White only' policy as an example, assimilation wasn't allowed if your skin was the wrong colour - it was apartheid however much people may like to say otherwise, second class citizen.

There are radicals based on faith, colour, gender - whatever can be seen as a divisor between one set of people and another.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

But the thing is, your father presumably wasn't singling out muslims was he, he meant any man? You are then making the leap when you say 'many use' and targeting that faith when others may do it and use their faith of choice as a flag, or not use a faith at all and use other means to try and empower someone.

People of any faith, and indeed no faith can be evil, there's no arguing that. People of any faith and indeed no faith can also be good - equally, there's no denying that.

As I was responding to "Angeldolls" post

The punish them with physical assaults because they love them so much and want to help them. The women should accept all these things gratefully. It glorifies Allah.

I don't think I was making a leap at all. I was addressing the point she was making in her post.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

That's what I am trying to figure out. What exactly is your purpose for immigrating if you have no intention of assimilating?

So did all new australians start playing the didgeridoo and paint dot paintings when they arrived australia? Or is assimilation a two way process which should allow Muslums to maintain their faith without intimidation?

It seems to me that a sought of racism is being promoted on the BS of terrorism which in australia has resulted in a death count that is probably less than .001% of the road toll. The police should spend more time investigating car drivers, questioning their children about their fathers/mothers drinking patterns, if they really wanted to save lives.

Freedom is all about protecting the rights of others even if you don't agree with their way of life.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Why would Muslims assimilate when they view their lifestyle and belief superior to the host country?

a reply to: uncommitted

I got that impression from this comment:

That wasn't what I was suggesting, I was raising the point of assimilation. Australia is like every country - cultures come and become part of the national identity - some people on here seem to be suggesting that people who follow the faith of Islam should be the exception - of course, some are saying it in milder terms than others.

No, you did not mention women, however many of them treat women in such a way that it will not fit in with Western or Australian culture. I incorporated that thought of assimilation - and people allowing Arabs/Muslims to be the exception when it comes to the treatment of women. It is only right that they assimilate, or go to jail if they abuse women, rape their wife, or molest or mutilate the genitals of female children. They will need to END those practices before they can truly assimilate with NO EXCEPTIONS.

But if I misunderstood your post, and played off it unjustly, then please accept my apologies. I tried to go back and disassociate your post from mine, but it's too late.

Sincerely,
Angelina

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

If they accept these ideals and choose them as their way of life, I have no problems with that. As long as they keep it as their personal choice.

That's where we differ. I DO have a problem with it. If they are going to live in societies where domestic violence of any kind is a criminal act, then they will need to abide by those laws, or face the consequences.

originally posted by: angeldoll
a reply to: uncommitted

I got that impression from this comment:

That wasn't what I was suggesting, I was raising the point of assimilation. Australia is like every country - cultures come and become part of the national identity - some people on here seem to be suggesting that people who follow the faith of Islam should be the exception - of course, some are saying it in milder terms than others.

No, you did not mention women, however many of them treat women in such a way that it will not fit in with Western or Australian culture. I incorporated that thought of assimilation - and people allowing Arabs/Muslims to be the exception when it comes to the treatment of women. It is only right that they assimilate, or go to jail if they abuse women, rape their wife, or molest or mutilate the genitals of female children. They will need to END those practices before they can truly assimilate.

But if I misunderstood your post, and played off it unjustly, then please accept my apologies. I tried to go back and disassociate your post from mine, but it's too late.

Sincerely,
Angelina

No need for apologies, and I hope you understand I am in no way going to excuse anyone who abuses anyone in any way, if that had been the point of this OP I wouldn't have even added into the debate.

Your post though does raise the central point maybe about this. While I am not suggesting countries where Islam is the predominant religion are oases of equality (but the same could be said where the country is either secular or predominantly another faith, to a greater or lesser extent), Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic tradition - it originated in ancient Egypt - but it might be practiced in predominantly Islamic countries, that is true, but also in predominantly Christian ones in Africa. Thing is, neither religion condones it.