Everything is basically set up to put you in debt.

a reply to: Power_Semi

Yes, we're going back to the times Upton Sinclair wrote about in "The Jungle". Have you read that? You should if you haven't. The divide is getting so wide and deep between the 1% and the rest of us I don't know how we can ever hope for anything better. The grip the power brokers in the world have on it is too strong.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
I have been shopping for a house, a new car, even dental and medical work all these are set up to put you in debt.

I vividly recall the days when, at leat in in my country, a working man did not have a car, nor owned a house. And most folks were "working men" in those days. Most lived in a rented home, which was build and owned by a non-profit building cooperation. Working people had almost nothing left after paying their regular bills - so saving was out of the question. And so if something broke they had no choice but get a (very) cheap replacement. But everybody had that problem - so there was a lot of swapping and giving away of goods going on. Nobody wanted to make a profit, heck no, you simply gave away what you did not need at a symbolic price - not because you wanted the money, but just because you did not want others get the idea that they lived of your good will. "You've payed for it, it's yours now, do with it as you want". The idea of having to pay a months salary for a "luxury" item was seen as absurd: how was one supposed to live that month? And you could not even GET a loan in those days when you were a working man. In my village, about 80 percent of the people lived like that. If you took ill, you'd go to the GP and the bill was payed by our national collective healt system. Did not cost you a dime. Schools were free, payed by the state.

Forward 50 years - bigger houses, we can't often find a job near our homes anymore so almost everybody has a car ("you need to be flexible!"), the government here taxes non-profit building societies literally to oblivion ("it's against the free market!"), so even poor folks have to buy a house ("But you will be a proud home owner!"). You have to pay for schools, pay for health insurance ("Free market!"). And indeed, most of the banks are all to keen on loaning you the money. Even if you're already knee-deep in debt.

Even simply "living of what you have" is not easy anymore: where are you supposed to live? You can't get a decent place to rent nowadays. So, off you go, to the bank..

I agree: our nation is ruled by banks. And if they have bled us dry, paying huge bonuses and profits to shareholders and "management" - and then go bankrupt, they suddenly are "too big to fail" and we all have to pay deerly just to save them. And after about two years, the moneysharks step right back in and demand that the bank will enter the stock market again - "Free market! Remeber: Free market!" ..

Yes, we were poor in the olden days. But at least we OWNED what we had, it was all payed for..

Paid slavery. Nothing more.

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: ChesterJohn

If you take out loans, etc, yes you are in debt and you are paying huge amounts of interest because you could not be bothered to wait and be patient, saving the money.

"save the money"

Have you or anyone else ever saved up $110k in a few years to buy a house cash?

Do you know how long would it take the average American to save $110K even without any debt?

a reply to: Power_Semi
Remember businesses also have mortgages from the bank to house and run their businesses that hire people.

It is not the businesses it is the BANKING system. They have the prices of everything artificially inflated. And it all supposedly based on oil prices?

Look at the current oil prices was upwards $145 per drum now $45. the Saudi Prince told us just a 8 months back these prices were artificial (MSM asleep at the Wheel never reported it) and then came the oil drop. The drop killed off investors in fracking, drilling and exporting oil not just in the US but around the world.

But the drop in oil prices only went as far as the pump. Food prices are still up, clothing still up, housing on the rise.

Basically the prices of commodities are Artificially over priced.

What if we were able to remove the banking industry?

Would everything level out or just crash?

Who is driving the car of the current Market?

Clearly the banks aren't.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: ChesterJohn

If you take out loans, etc, yes you are in debt and you are paying huge amounts of interest because you could not be bothered to wait and be patient, saving the money.

"save the money"

Have you or anyone else ever saved up $110k in a few years to buy a house cash?

Do you know how long would it take the average American to save $110K even without any debt?

The "average American" would never be able to save $110k because the average American is $30-$50k in debt. That's the issue. Debt is encouraged as being normal. That is situation that needs to change. In Congress and in average American households. But it much easier to spend wildly than to use self-discipline and most people take the easy way until it becomes the hard way---which it will.

a reply to: diggindirt

I fully agree

But at $1800 per month and no real debt how long will it take to save $110k? Rent is $835, minimum groceries is $800 per month for a family of 5. Already all but $200 is gone. what about gasoline, you see even without debt the average American cannot save any money.

Now if the wife has a job (there goes homeschooloing for sure) you could take over half of her income and save it. Say she is making $1200 and you are able to put $800 a month away in savings. it would take them almost 12 years to save $110K. And that with no major purchases or major illness or any other unforeseeable disaster.

12 years before you could buy a house. So the system is set to put you in debt. I feel that if things weren't so artificially inflated one might be able to buy or build his own house for a fraction of the cost and the economics would domino for more jobs not just here but everywhere if the system were different.

Why do just a few feel they have the right to artificially keep prices higher than they really are?

Is it greed?

Is it power?

Is it for superiority?

who ever it was that gave the Solari Financial link (may have been in another tread) it like the Life Financial it is semi-pyrimidial concept of marketing a product, Shaklee Products was the real inventor if this type of marketing. Still only the ones at the top get rich.

If the Average American Family didn't care about the confines of society, they could likely save a lot more.

Groceries? Eggs/Rice/Beans, a little cheese. A bland, meat free diet, while not the most culinary can feed a huge family for little to no cost. A lot of people will balk at this notion, but a hugely varied and processed diet is just as constructed to put you in the debt hole.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Of course the system is set up to put you in debt. That's how they make the big bucks!
That's also why you must ignore the system and find a way to work around it and not be brainwashed by media into thinking you MUST have the newest, latest, greatest gadget and you must have it NOW!
If it takes twelve years to save up to buy a house---so what? That's less than half of the time you would be in debt to buy it. Patience is a virtue. Better to be patient for 12 years than to be stressed out worrying if you'll be able to make the payments.
Perhaps picking up a second job and dedicating that income to a "house fund" is in your future---or your wife finding a way to generate income and still be able to homeschool? One of my relatives does laundry and ironing for people to produce income while still being at home with her children. Another does home day care.
It takes a bit of creativity sometimes and working more than 40 hours a week for a specific amount of time but in the end, the stress is less than wondering if you're going to lose the home that you couldn't afford in the first place. I worked three jobs, one full-time and two part-time, when we were putting the kids through school and paying off a mortgage. We lived on one salary and dedicated my three checks to college tuition and saving for retirement. Our children also had jobs as teens.
I'm not saying it is easy but it can be done and the few years of struggle are all worth it when you can finally retire and be able to live comfortably without the stress and worry of being in debt. I wish you the very best.

Edit to add: I can assure you that working around and outside the system will produce better results than attempting to change the system. You can spin your wheels while complaining that the system shouldn't be this way or you can make up your mind to find a way to achieve your goals and put your energy into finding your way rather than bowing to what others do. Your children will learn valuable lessons along these lines too when they see your efforts pay off. Ours moaned, groaned, complained and were royal pains in the keester when they were making sacrifices that debt-loaded families didn't make. Now that they are adults, they often express their appreciation for the lessons they learned at a young age.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
Yes I find the 30 year loan to be a repulsive form of enslavement. We need to lower the maximum length of a loan to 10 years.

Why? No one makes you sign mortgage papers.

Houses are not worth what they are asking us to pay for them over 30 years.

Then whoever bought it purchased it at the wrong place and/or time. Real estate is still one of the best investments you can make.

I would love to know what some of you guys do for a living. I bet most of you are living beyond your means, and of course, that's someone else's fault.

a reply to: stopbeingnaive

I live within my means, I only got into a little debt because of a tooth crown. I shall have it whooped by Christmas.

I couldn't agree more!

I work for one of the biggest banks in the world and all they teach us is to SELL SELL SELL! I enjoy my job but the sales part bothers me esoecially when I have to try and convince someone to sign up for another loan or credit card and I can see they have far more debt than money in the bank!

When I worked in banking before it was so different. It wasn't about sales it was about helping people manage their money and get out of debt. It's the opposite now. It boggles my mind. It's my job so I have to deal with it but I feel bad when I can clearly tell the person just can't afford it yet I still have to try and convince them it's a great idea.

I don't have a single credit card or loan. I buy what I can afford with cash and I save up for big purchases or use layaway if available. I shop second hand for everything if I can. I don't like new items, they never last!


It's sad to see how in debt society is and I see it more now with my job. I see the payments people make and everything, all of which will just keep them in debt and paying far more than they borrowed or charged. We do have decent rates but to qualify for them your credit has to be impeccable and the majority of the country doesn't have impeccable credit.