“Today you will be with me in paradise”

Before I discuss my thread I would like to remind bible students and theologist that Jesus was frustrated a few times with his apostles because he had assumed they understood him and what he was teaching them. Refer to the Gospels.

Luke 23: 42-43 - The Crucifixion - And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Everyone who dies after Christ ascended to heaven..... is immediately judged when they die. You will not be resting in your grave as if asleep.

Those spoke of in the Old Testament have not yet been judged but are still in their graves because they died before the Messiah's first appearance on earth. So the Old Testament speaks often of those in the grave..... a sleep. BUT something changed since those teachings of the Old Testament, what was it? The Messiah came, he fulfilled prophecy, he died on the cross and when dying a thief was told by Christ that he would be with him in paradise that very day. How can that be? Aren't we all to go to to the grave to wait for the resurrection? The human body resurrection......YES for some of us NOT ALL. But after Christ died and ascended to heaven and sat with the father on the throne ...... all power and authority has be given to the Lamb (Jesus) It will be he who judges you..... not the Father.

Many of us know the meaning of sheol, hades, gehenna and the grave; (see Old Testament for further reading). One man talks about the physical body while others talk about man's soul. Many speak of man's body, and soul and often one gets confused when talking about man's body and soul. Other times you will see the soul can be referred to as the human mind.... Refer to Psalm and often you will read how King David cried out to God to save his soul (mind from going crazy) So you can see when talking about man's soul it is often referred to as his mind and vice versa. But then the prophets, mostly Apostles speak of man's spirit. So when did this become a hot topic? What is man's spirit? It is not his physical body and it is not his soul. See Job 32:8, Proverbs 20:27, 1 Cor. 2:15,

Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

So there is a body, a mind (soul) and a spirit.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

When we die our spirit seperates from the human body and goes before Christ and we receive our just rewards.

Are you read to meet the Lord?

a reply to: DeathSlayer

No it doesn't.

Dead=gone.

Annihilation.

Try as you might,there's no escaping it.At least you won't be disappointed after your death.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Good post as the thief on the cross is the only person we know of to be in 'heaven'.
My belief is that the battle didn't end with the crucifixion, but just moved onto the next level It stands to reason if the soul is trapped in the next stage then that would be what he came for also. to free the trapped souls.
We don't only confuse our physical life with our souls journey but we confuse the message he was conveying. Some of the bible refers to the afterlife and the battle to come after his death.
When he reaches his objective in the afterlife he will free the dead souls who need to hear his message, then they will come to the assistance of our future souls.
The battle is raging and we cant see the fighting, we are wining and justice will prevail.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
One possible explanation is that time is a feature of the created world only, so that when individuals enter the presence of God it will feel like something happening immediately after death. There is no subjective interval between death and the final resurrection/last judgement scene.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Those spoke of in the Old Testament have not yet been judged but are still in their graves because they died before the Messiah's first appearance on earth. So the Old Testament speaks often of those in the grave..... a sleep.

People living during "Old Testament days" believed in resurrection.

Hosea 6
Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. 2 He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

originally posted by: chewi
a reply to: DeathSlayer
Good post as the thief on the cross is the only person we know of to be in 'heaven'.
My belief is that the battle didn't end with the crucifixion, but just moved onto the next level It stands to reason if the soul is trapped in the next stage then that would be what he came for also. to free the trapped souls.
We don't only confuse our physical life with our souls journey but we confuse the message he was conveying. Some of the bible refers to the afterlife and the battle to come after his death.
When he reaches his objective in the afterlife he will free the dead souls who need to hear his message, then they will come to the assistance of our future souls.
The battle is raging and we cant see the fighting, we are wining and justice will prevail.

Brother you are right the battle has not ended...... a spiritual battle is ongoing within each of us. Which side will each of us pick?

Trying to interpet what Jesus meant on the cross can be confusing but I don't think he was talking in riddles or some secret code..... I believe he was in immense pain and spoke his mind and not in some type of metaphor as he spoke to the people and to his apostles. And this neatly ties into NDE experiences.....people dying and then seeing heaven or hell. Many seeing Jesus in tears as their spirit is sent to hell. Many NDE'S speak of meeting with Jesus before seeing heaven or hell then returning with a new life.....totalling changing oneself after seeing and hearing.

Of course, what Jesus said depends on where you place the comma, and the original (?) Greek did not have commas. If the Gospels were originally written in Hebrew, the same applies - no commas.

With that said, tell me how Jesus and the thief could have been in Paradise THAT DAY, when Jesus was Himself dead in the grave. He said to Mary the morning of His resurrection, three days later, that He had not yet ascended to His Father. With that understanding, I put the comma here: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." [from Luke 23:43, KJV] Now His statement is in line with the whole OT, and it makes total sense if we know that Jesus is the YHVH of the OT.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Those spoke of in the Old Testament have not yet been judged but are still in their graves because they died before the Messiah's first appearance on earth. So the Old Testament speaks often of those in the grave..... a sleep.

People living during "Old Testament" days believed in resurrection.

Hosea 6
Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us. 2 He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

You are 100% correct and I hope I did not confuse anyone and there will be a resurrection...... actually two resurrections.

The resurrection deals with the spirit, soul and human body rising from the grave....again in the flesh and only some will receive this gift. That is what it is called a gift and not all of us will be given a second chance to receive this.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Of course, what Jesus said depends on where you place the comma, and the original (?) Greek did not have commas. If the Gospels were originally written in Hebrew, the same applies - no commas.

With that said, tell me how Jesus and the thief could have been in Paradise THAT DAY, when Jesus was Himself dead in the grave. He said to Mary the morning of His resurrection, three days later, that He had not yet ascended to His Father. With that understanding, I put the comma here: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." [from Luke 23:43, KJV] Now His statement is in line with the whole OT, and it makes total sense if we know that Jesus is the YHVH of the OT.

A very, very good point, one that has started numerous debates amongst theologians for centuries. Ascension occurred 40 days later after Christ's death, which was witnessed by his apostles. Jesus did not speak about the three days he was dead other than him speaking of his body which was in the grave.

I believe the thread clearly shows man is body, soul and spirit ( a trinity so to speak )

The spirit seperates at death.......where does it go? It returns from where it came.......back to the creator and who created us? Jesus did........ and who created Jesus? The Father did.......

Lets make man in OUR image....... and that spirit is then judged........by Christ.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
With that said, tell me how Jesus and the thief could have been in Paradise THAT DAY, when Jesus was Himself dead in the grave...s Father. With that understanding, I put the comma here: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The flaw in that proposal is that "I am telling you today" would have been too obvious to be worth saying.
I suggested an answer to your question in my earlier post, that the entrance into paradise would be "this day" in the subjective experience of the thief.

a reply to: DeathSlayer



But we have this episode .....1Sa 28:7 Saul told his servants, "Find me a woman who is a medium so I can go to her and make my inquiry through her." His servants told him, "Look, there's a woman at Endor who is a medium."
1Sa 28:8 Saul disguised himself, putting on different clothes. He went along with two men to the woman at night. He said, "Consult a familiar spirit for me and bring up for me the one whom I tell you."
1Sa 28:9 The woman told him, "Look, you know what Saul has done. He has removed mediums and spiritists from the land, so why are you trying to entrap me, so as to cause my death?"
1Sa 28:10 Saul swore to her by the LORD: "As surely as the LORD lives, no punishment will come on you for this thing."
1Sa 28:11 The woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Saul said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly. The woman told Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
1Sa 28:13 The king told her, "Don't be afraid; but what do you see?" The woman told Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the ground."
1Sa 28:14 Saul told her, "What does he look like?" She said, "An old man is coming up, and he's wrapped in a robe." Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed low to the ground and prostrated himself.
1Sa 28:15 Samuel told Saul, "Why did you disturb me by bringing me up?" Saul said, "I'm in great distress. The Philistines are waging war against me. God has departed from me and won't answer me anymore, either by messages written by the hand of the prophets or by dreams. So I've summoned you to tell me what I should do." ISV The Lord is my redeemer .Aside from putting my faith in Him I can do little . Actually the less I do the more He has done .He finished it on the cross and all I need to do is believe that .....peace

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yeah, I can kinda buy that...

a reply to: Lazarus Short

It is trying to grasp the concept of eternity past present and future when eternity has no time constraints . Enoch didn't die but was taken up by God.

a reply to: DeathSlayer



Theology and the debate among theologians has lead to much misunderstandings imo . As a example is Calvinism and the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation .

When we go to scripture we do not find Calvin's theory in reality because of our free will ...example is David . 1Sa 23:9 David knew that Saul was devising evil plans against him, and so he told Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod."
1Sa 23:10 David said, "LORD God of Israel. Your servant has definitely heard that Saul intends to come to Keilah to destroy the town because of me.
1Sa 23:11 Will the people of Keilah hand me over to him? Will Saul come down just as your servant has heard? LORD God of Israel, please inform your servant." The LORD said, "He will come down."
1Sa 23:12 Then David said, "Will the people of Keilah hand me over to Saul?" The LORD said, "They'll hand you over."
1Sa 23:13 David and his men, about 600 strong, got up and left Keilah. They moved around wherever they could go. Saul was advised that David had escaped from Keilah, so he stopped the campaign. ISV obviously God not only know what will happen but what could happen . David didn't ask the Lord what he should do . He used his own free will to get out out dodge . There fore Calvin's theroy is a none issue and has probably done more damage to the gospel then one might imagine . Creeds and denominations stem from theology .

I think our souls do go on to meet Jesus but our bodies won't be glorified until the coming of Christ. Of course no one knows as such knowledge would be too much for the human mind to conceive.

I remember some passages in the New Testament where Jesus said in the few days after his crucifixion, Not to touch Him as He had not completely "transformed ". I'm not well read, so perhaps some of you know the scriptures I'm referring to.

a reply to: maybee
John ch20 v17, on the morning of the Resurrection.
Thomas was invited to touch him in the evening, implying that Jesus had "ascended" in the interval.

I know it's a Jewish tradition to cover mirrors for three days after some passes away. I think it might be related to The Ressurection.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thank you. Wow it's like the glorified body could not be touched by mortals.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Everyone who dies after Christ ascended to heaven..... is immediately judged when they die. You will not be resting in your grave as if asleep.

Interesting. You of course have a biblical quote to back up this assertion?

I am always amazed at the audacity of individuals to assert claims like this when there is no textual basis. If you want to be a bible-based believer, then ok. But much of what you state is just made up. Judged? Christ said that the kingdom is within. That is not too subtle code for "you create your own reality - you are the god."

Be your own god, as Christ suggested. Daddy is gone....

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I think when he is talking about those in the grave he is also referring to the living zombies. The irreligious and the false Christians whose ego keeps there minds trapped in the materialistic world.

If Christ represents life, then not having Christ in one's life represents death. The Love of our father is the only real life that one can experience on earth, because the material world and all it's shiny objects are just an illusion.

Love, peace and happiness can not be found in the external illusion of materialism. Love, peace and happiness is the reward for obedience to the father and his law which all other laws are based on. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Those who have fallen in Love with the material world Love only themselves and are in a constant competition with their neighbors.

Materialistic people are the walking dead, because they do not have the Life of the Spirit within to guide them.

Jesus came to raise the dead from their graves is a metaphor that can be read as follows. Jesus came to raise the materialistic zombies from their graves by giving them Life in himself, the internal Holy Spirit.