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“Today you will be with me in paradise”

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posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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The rest:

15:5
1 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed


II CORINTHIANS

5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation,

to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.


GALATIONS

3:8 What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

4:13 This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.


PHILIPPIANS

2:10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

COLOSSIANS

1:20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ's blood on the cross.

I TIMOTHY

1:15 This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—

2:4-6 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


HEBREWS

2:9 Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2:17 so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.

8:11,12And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their relatives,[d]
saying, 'You should know the LORD.'
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will know me already.
And I will forgive their wickedness,
and I will never again remember their sins

9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

10:10 For God's will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."


I PETER

3:18-20 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

II PETER

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. *(John 13:3)


I JOHN

2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

3:5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him.

4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the payment for our sins.

4:14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.


REVELATION

3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

" Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign to the ages of the ages!'


14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed."

20:14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.

21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

22:2 On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.

22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything.

22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let anyone who hears this say, "Come." Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.




posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 07:12 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
(all verses from the KJV)

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Laz: The Lake of Fire is not Hell, as death and hell are at some point, cast into it.


There, it's a matter of usage, but the idea of eternal punishment is real enough, whatever label one assigns. If one was in Hell since death, and Hell was cast into the lake of fire, then the occupants wold be as well. The modern usage might not be as precise as it could be, but the concept isn't invalid. For most, Hell is seen as a place of eternal punishment.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Laz: "Everlasting"? "Age-long" would serve the original Greek better.


The original word, transliterated, is aiōnios, which is defined as, according to Strong's -

perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

So, there, "everlasting" works just as well.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Laz: "hell" here simply means the realm of the dead - the grave, the pit, the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew sheol.


I have to disagree there. If the grave was the only reference, then there would be no need to distinguish dead in the body from both body and soul being destroyed. Dead in body is dead in the grave.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Laz: Jesus is merely speaking of Gehenna, and avoiding having your body burned there as a criminal, and not getting a proper burial. Hell here, as elsewhere, is a mis-translation following bad theology.


The phrase, "...into the fire that never shall be quenched." is pretty clear. This isn't just a bad burial place.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Laz: Is this fire for refinement and eventual reconciliation, or for eternal punishment? God describes Himself often in His Word as a refining fire, but stated that killing living people in a literal fire is something that had never entered His mind.


Refinement is for those who believe, while the sort of fire described for the unrepentant is far different. You'll have to provide a reference for that last.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Laz: Again, "age-long" is a better translation.

Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Laz: "for ever and ever" is again better replaced by "age-long."


Again, nope. Same thing as above, and same meaning.


originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Laz: Honestly, I haven't dealt with this verse yet. Even Laz does not know every verse... EDIT - Looked this one up to find that "hell fire" is translated from "gehenna," which is a literal place. The KJV fails again.


No, it doesn't. The valley is used figuratively, as a metaphor for the actual place of punishment. What s it you believe happens to those who don't repent? The Bible is very clear on this.



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: LadyGreenEyes


LadyGreenEyes:
There, it's a matter of usage, but the idea of eternal punishment is real enough, whatever label one assigns. If one was in Hell since death, and Hell was cast into the lake of fire, then the occupants wold be as well. The modern usage might not be as precise as it could be, but the concept isn't invalid. For most, Hell is seen as a place of eternal punishment.
Laz:
I have several reasons to think the LoF is not Hell, but the most fundamental is this: At some point, the LoF must give up its dead, just as the sea did at the resurrection. For two reasons – death will have been done with when it is cast into the LoF, or when the last enemy (Death) is defeated. (Rev 21:4, I Cor 15:26)
- If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, how can God ever become All in all? But He will.
Thus, eternal punishment in Hell is excluded.

LadyGreenEyes:
The original word, transliterated, is aiōnios, which is defined as, according to Strong's -
perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
So, there, "everlasting" works just as well.
Laz:
Everlasting or age-long? You looked at Strong’s. Laz has a Strong’s and a Young’s. Young’s has this:
1. age lasting, olam
2. what is before in time or place
3. perpetual
4. age
5. age lasting
“Everlasting” is far from required.

LadyGreenEyes:
I have to disagree there. If the grave was the only reference, then there would be no need to distinguish dead in the body from both body and soul being destroyed. Dead in body is dead in the grave.
Laz:
Only God can restore the soul, the living, breathing, person. Only He can withhold doing so for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, but that is not the end of the story…

LadyGreenEyes:
The phrase, "...into the fire that never shall be quenched." is pretty clear. This isn't just a bad burial place.
Laz:
Very clear – the fires are always burning in the city dump, but that is not forever, as they got quenched after 70 AD.

LadyGreenEyes:
Refinement is for those who believe, while the sort of fire described for the unrepentant is far different. You'll have to provide a reference for that last.
Laz:
Read Isaiah again, as he speaks of forgiveness and restoration without exception. As to the burning which never entered the mind of God, see Jeremiah 19:5.

LadyGreenEyes:
No, it doesn't. The valley is used figuratively, as a metaphor for the actual place of punishment. What s it you believe happens to those who don't repent? The Bible is very clear on this.
Laz:
If you already believe in the Hell theory, you will see everything through that filter. Thus, a literal statement about a literal and then present place is twisted to mean Hell. Yes, the Bible is very clear on what happens to those who don’t repent – they get cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer the second death, but (thank God!) they are eventually saved and restored when death (the last enemy, remember?) is destroyed. How else can it play out?



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 09:46 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Hell is not Biblical at all.


The Universalism heresy is a VERY dangerous message that is absolutely wrong and clearly not scriptural.

God would be evil if he coerced everyone into salvation.

He will never force ANYONE against their will to go to Heaven.

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.


Jesus: "I'm a gentleman Nick, I'll never force myself on you or anyone.

Jesus: Nick, what would be more unjust and unfair, for me to steal you at the moment of your death and force you to live in my presence and in my will for all eternity.

Jesus: Hell on the other hand is a place where you'll be completely free from all of my "though shalt nots"... FOREVER."

All it takes to devastate Universalism is a single Scripture which shows a person (any person) who does not enter God’s paradise kingdom. If such is found, then Universalism has been disproved, which is clearly the case (Mt. 13:41,42; 25:41,46; Rev. 20:15; etc.). Just from the hell warnings cited in the gospels, it should be apparent that a real fiery place does exist beyond the grave where the wicked will go.

Various modern day proponents of Universalism can be adamant and sincere as they try to convince their listeners of Universalism, but they are all sincerely wrong. One example of such a teacher is zealous Gary Amirault. He has been dealt with and his chief arguments dismantled at Evangelical Outreach. True salvation comes to all who are willing to repent of their sins and submissively follow the Lord Jesus Christ in this sinful society (John 14:6; Acts 20:21; 26:20; 2 Pet. 3:9; etc.). One must endure to the end to enter God’s kingdom (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:10,11). Hence, there is no eternal security under grace.

Universalism

...out of love, he allowed Lucifer to choose his own way and this is the same freedom the Lord gives to each of us. He's not going to force anyone to go to heaven that chooses that they don't want to, even if they once did. God doesn't make decisions for us, but He allows us to choose for ourselves. This has to be true, since sin entered the world because of bad choices made by Adam and Eve.

The Lord gave each of His created beings a free will. After we have accepted Jesus as our savior, we still have the freedom to turn back to a life of sin and to reject His grace. The Lord speaks about people being in danger of having their names removed from the Book of Life. (Exodus 32:33 & Revelation 3:5)

Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Both Universalism and Amirault are unquestionably defeated primarily by three large groupings of Scriptures:

● All the many Scriptures which teach there is a place of torment in fire after death awaiting the impure in heart.

● All the many Scriptures which teach there are two types of people—the children of God and the children of the devil...

● All the many Scriptures which teach there are conditions, on man’s part, to initially receive and retain salvation after it is received.

If one would add up the Scriptural evidence from those three groupings against Universalism it would be massive. Hence, Gary Amirault (and all others like him) have to distort, deny, contradict and/or avoid all those Scriptures to embrace the dangerous doctrine that all will go to heaven because Jesus died for everyone.

■ WARNING: Gary Amirault is not correctly handling the Scriptures and, therefore, is spreading a fine-sounding lie (and heresy) as God’s truth to the eternal and spiritual detriment of all those who believe it.

www.evangelicaloutreach.org...




edit on 23-10-2015 by Murgatroid because: felt like it...



posted on Oct, 24 2015 @ 12:47 AM
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Lazarus, it looks like you are letting your theology determine your hermeneutic, when it should be the other way around. Don't just try to fit the scripture into your view; let the scripture form your view. No offense intended.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 08:29 AM
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originally posted by: 9baller
Lazarus, it looks like you are letting your theology determine your hermeneutic, when it should be the other way around. Don't just try to fit the scripture into your view; let the scripture form your view. No offense intended.


You think? I think you're guessing. I have, in fact, subscribed to both the hell theory and the no-hell theory at different times. Eventually, I decided to read through the entire Bible to see which theory was a better fit. I am presently in Jeremiah, and have yet to see ANYTHING to convince me that

1. God created Hell.
2. Anyone else created Hell.
3. God threatened anyone with Hell.
4. God's Law relegates anyone to Hell.
5. Any instance of "hell" means anything other than the grave, the pit, the realm of the dead, sheol.

It seems to me that the fire-forever crowd puts theology ahead of hermeneutics all the time. I see them viewing every possible text thru a Hell filter. I see them twist every possible text to fit their theory. However, the no-Hell theory is a better fit, from what I have read thus far.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 08:39 AM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

You really start your argument with the conclusion? Hmmmmm...

I'm just not impressed with "large group of scripture" arguments - it's just intimidation. I see two Scripture quotes in your post, but I have already posted 77 Scriptures which indicate that UR is correct. Fire-forever lacks such a textual basis, and most of what they have is easily dismissed.

My bottom line, as ever, is this: If anyone, ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, God can never become All in all. But He will become so. No one has yet dared to answer me on this.

BTW, I did watch The Encounter - good movie except for the Hell references.


edit on 25-10-2015 by Lazarus Short because: dum de dum

edit on 25-10-2015 by Lazarus Short because: de dum de



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 01:24 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
a reply to: Murgatroid

My bottom line, as ever, is this: If anyone, ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, God can never become All in all. But He will become so. No one has yet dared to answer me on this.



God is the most perfect being that can be imagined. He possess attributes such as omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, immutability, etc. Your statement implies that God is not all in all, and that he must become it by removing all people from Hell. I reply that He is all in all, for God is unchanging. To say that God must become all in all, by removing people from Hell, is to say that His all-in-allness is dependent, that it is not inherent to His nature. The attribute of God's aseity says that God is self-existent, that He exists in and of Himself and from Himself. Because of this it follows that God is independent and cannot be affected by any creature or anything, unless He allows it that is.

Let's look at creation: God created not out of necessity but out of His free Will and Love. God does not need anything in creation, for it is all His.

I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
Psalm 50:9-12

God "is Who He is," and He doesn't need anything, certainly not to become all in all. My hope is that we will be able to understand God more fully, and then worship Him in awe.



posted on Oct, 25 2015 @ 05:07 PM
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originally posted by: 9baller

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
a reply to: Murgatroid

My bottom line, as ever, is this: If anyone, ANYONE is still dead and/or in Hell, God can never become All in all. But He will become so. No one has yet dared to answer me on this.



God is the most perfect being that can be imagined. He possess attributes such as omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, immutability, etc. Your statement implies that God is not all in all, and that he must become it by removing all people from Hell. I reply that He is all in all, for God is unchanging. To say that God must become all in all, by removing people from Hell, is to say that His all-in-allness is dependent, that it is not inherent to His nature. The attribute of God's aseity says that God is self-existent, that He exists in and of Himself and from Himself. Because of this it follows that God is independent and cannot be affected by any creature or anything, unless He allows it that is.

Let's look at creation: God created not out of necessity but out of His free Will and Love. God does not need anything in creation, for it is all His.

I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
Psalm 50:9-12

God "is Who He is," and He doesn't need anything, certainly not to become all in all. My hope is that we will be able to understand God more fully, and then worship Him in awe.


9baller, you are reading a lot into what I say. First, when I say that God will be All in all, I am just repeating what the Bible says. The phrase means that God will give us the full indwelling (All) of His Spirit, and to everyone (all). Yes, He is complete within Himself, but He has not yet done this for us. I think you have done some clever sleigh of hand with some meanings here. Then you go on with some more sleigh of hand, saying that to do this, God must remove folks from Hell. Nope - my whole point is that God becoming All in all is not compatible with the theory of eternal fiery torment in Hell. You have knocked down a straw man, but have yet to wrest honestly with my challenge.

Consider this - Genesis 1:1 tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creation of Hell is not mentioned, and that is your first clue. Look at it this way: In the beginning [time] God [intelligence] created [energy] the heavens [space] and the earth [matter]. No allowance is made for the metaphysical realm of Hell. Either God is not telling us everything, though Jesus said that if it were not so, He would have said so, or all the pastors, Bible teachers, and theologians are liars. Tell me your best guess...



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 12:49 AM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

If you don't accept the idea of eternal punishment, you'll filter everything based on that, too. We'll just have to agree to disagree.



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 08:56 AM
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originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Lazarus Short

If you don't accept the idea of eternal punishment, you'll filter everything based on that, too. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


It always comes to that, doesn't it? No one's mind is ever changed on an ATS thread. But now if you think my Biblical interpretation is due to a pre-concieved theological/theo-illogical filter, would it surprise you to know that I was raised in the Hell-roaring Southern Baptist denomination? Like the Bereans, I am reading through the Scriptures to see if what I believe is really so, and so far, it is.

I will see you in the Kingdom, LadyGreenEyes - it is unavoidable...
edit on 27-10-2015 by Lazarus Short because: dum de dum



posted on Oct, 27 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Lazarus Short

If you don't accept the idea of eternal punishment, you'll filter everything based on that, too. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


It always comes to that, doesn't it? No one's mind is ever changed on an ATS thread. But now if you think my Biblical interpretation is due to a pre-concieved theological/theo-illogical filter, would it surprise you to know that I was raised in the Hell-roaring Southern Baptist denomination? Like the Bereans, I am reading through the Scriptures to see if what I believe is really so, and so far, it is.

I will see you in the Kingdom, LadyGreenEyes - it is unavoidable...


Not really a surprise. Southern Baptist myself by preference, though not so much the fire-and-brimstone style. I saw some of that, of course, but that wasn't the type preached where we attended.

I have done quite a lot of reading myself, since those long ago days, and studying, to see if what I believe is true, and I haven't found anything yet that wasn't taught Biblically.

And, yes, I will see you there!!



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