Why Creation Is The Only Logical Explanation...

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: edmc^2

One means create and one means was. And all those things are reasons I have concluded the bible is false. It's not rocket science. There's all kinds of proof of the errancy of the bible. If most of it were to be taken as metaphor and allegory then that would make sense.

Great. One means "create" and the other means "was" or was already there and made to appear. In other words, when reading the Bible, one must also consider the original words used, because it's part of the key to understanding what's being said.

Hence, when Moses wrote or penned Genesis, he used exact words to described exactly what he saw, experience and what to write. Unfortunately, when translating the original words into different languages, like English, the real or exact meaning gets lost in the translation. Ergo, haya' vs. bara.

So in Gen 1:1 the "heavens" (with all its heavenly bodies - moon/sun/stars) and the earth mean that they were already created (bara) before they were made (haya) to appear on earth. That is, if you're an observer here on earth, the sun/moon/ stars became visible through the watery deep enveloping the earth. No contradiction.

As for the errancy you talked about. Like I said - key is to consider the original words used by the writers, NOT the words used by the translators.

whats your theory of creation again? exactly how did the cosmos come to be? and where did this cosmic architect come from?

If you understand the concept of INFINITY, then you will understand how the cosmos came to be.

your choice of phrasing is fitting, as infinity is literally just a concept at this point. no one can point to infinity. no one can pull out a piece of paper and say "this is what infinity looks like". we cant even be sure the universe or even time is infinite at this point.

in other words, i asked for a theory, you gave me a hypothetical logic loop, a cause that is its own effect. is that all you have?

Of course INFINITY is a concept because it's not something we can see or touch. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite numbers. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite space and time. These are not just concepts but reality that is beyond our grasp. Yet we accept them as such.

Like I said, if you don't understand the concept of INFINITY then, you will not be able to understand how the COSMOS came to be.

a reply to: edmc^2

Of course INFINITY is a concept because it's not something we can see or touch. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite numbers. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite space and time. These are not just concepts but reality that is beyond our grasp. Yet we accept them as such.

oh please, do tell me all about your experiences regarding eternity and infinity. this ought to be amusing.

Like I said, if you don't understand the concept of INFINITY then, you will not be able to understand how the COSMOS came to be.

i would rather freely not understand than make a fool of myself pretending to.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: edmc^2

Of course INFINITY is a concept because it's not something we can see or touch. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite numbers. We have a concept of it in terms of infinite space and time. These are not just concepts but reality that is beyond our grasp. Yet we accept them as such.

oh please, do tell me all about your experiences regarding eternity and infinity. this ought to be amusing.

Like I said, if you don't understand the concept of INFINITY then, you will not be able to understand how the COSMOS came to be.

i would rather freely not understand than make a fool of myself pretending to.

not sure why this is too difficult for you to grasp. Infinity simply means - without beginning or end. Always existing.

Hence for the material universe to exist there must be by necessity an infinite source. One that has no beginning or end. A source that is higher than what was produced.

For example - whatever you (physically) produce will always be inferior to you. The potter will always be superior to the pot.

so what say the cat?

originally posted by: edmc^2
so what say the cat?

Both mathematically and scientifically, the concept of infinity cannot be quantified or even proven to exist. You are seriously claiming that an all powerful god, just happened to exist, blindly and randomly at the beginning? So basically god came from nothing. Yeah that makes sense.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2
so what say the cat?

Both mathematically and scientifically, the concept of infinity cannot be quantified or even proven to exist. You are seriously claiming that an all powerful god, just happened to exist, blindly and randomly at the beginning? So basically god came from nothing. Yeah that makes sense.

Both mathematically and scientifically, the concept of infinity cannot be quantified or even proven to exist.

Just because something can't be explained nor quantified scientifically or mathematically doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You're quite mistaken if that's what you think. In fact there are many things in the universe that can't be measured nor quantified yet we believed and accept their existence. We believe black holes exist, yet we don't understand what they are. We accept gravity exist, yet we really don't know what it is. Same goes with INFINITY.

So it's NOT the value of what we're measuring that proves or disproves its existence but the explanatory power of its concept.

If you're not convinced of this, then please by all means tell me where does the concept of numerals end? Is there an end to a number? Does it end at 0 or -1, -2, -2.123456789...ad infintum, does it end at 1, 2.123456789...ad infinitum?

Time - Space - when and where did they began, where do they stop?

Infinite or not?

You are seriously claiming that an all powerful god, just happened to exist, blindly and randomly at the beginning?

What's the alternative? That God was created? If so, who then created the creator of God? And who created the creator of the creator of God? Going further, who created the creator of the creator of the creator of the creator of God? Going further...you see what I'm getting at?

The ONLY logical conclusion and explanation is an Always existing Creator. Full Stop! Otherwise it's an unending question of who created whom.

Anyone who accepts the later is blind to the logical facts. Just like believing that infinity doesn't exist because it can't be quantified.

So basically god came from nothing. Yeah that makes sense.

Wrong! How could an absolute nothing create something? That doesn't make sense.

What makes sense is an Always Existing Creator. Just the existence of infinity makes sense.

originally posted by: edmc^2
We believe black holes exist, yet we don't understand what they are. We accept gravity exist, yet we really don't know what it is. Same goes with INFINITY.

Except there is hard evidence that gravity is real. And there is hard evidence of black holes. Infinity is just your guess. There isn't evidence of that. I'm not saying it's definitely wrong, but your guess is as good as mine here.

The ONLY logical conclusion and explanation is an Always existing Creator. Full Stop! Otherwise it's an unending question of who created whom.

How do you even rectify something like that? It's just pure dumb luck that this guy happens to exist prior to everything else? God must be a metaphor for energy. Imagine the odds that some crazy magical being just happens to always exist, but there is no explanation for him, he's just there. Randomly. I don't see how that is even possible. The further back you go in time the simpler things get. They don't become more complex. If there is a god, he likely evolved just like the rest of us. I'd reckon he would have started out as something very simple and became complex over time.

Wrong! How could an absolute nothing create something? That doesn't make sense.

Good question. How does that happen with god? Where did he come from? He is just there? Doesn't that seem a little too convenient?

Except there is hard evidence that gravity is real. And there is hard evidence of black holes. Infinity is just your guess. There isn't evidence of that. I'm not saying it's definitely wrong, but your guess is as good as mine here.

The ONLY logical conclusion and explanation is an Always existing Creator. Full Stop! Otherwise it's an unending question of who created whom.

Watch out with that statement. The flat earthers are coming out lately and the latest claim is that gravity is another lie of the devil. They don't just stop at evolution anymore but apparently the earth is flat. There is no gravity and we have never been to space.

a reply to: Barcs

Infinity is just your guess. There isn't evidence of that.

Sure there's solid evidence of it. Like I said, there's no limit to numbers. Just to name one. Unless of course you dispute this fact.

Time - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it to doesn't exist.

Space - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it has a boundary.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Yes, you are right. I have no idea why but the flat earth movement is surging right now. It boggles the mind.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Infinity is just your guess. There isn't evidence of that. I'm not saying it's definitely wrong, but your guess is as good as mine here.

Hope you're not just copying what Barcs just said. In any case, my "guess" is not as good as yours. It's better than yours since you don't accept the logical evidence- that numbers (for one) is infinite.

Do you dispute this evidence?

btw - I created another post. This one is getting longer.

originally posted by: edmc^2
Sure there's solid evidence of it. Like I said, there's no limit to numbers. Just to name one. Unless of course you dispute this fact.

That's why I said you can't quantify it. I didn't say the concept didn't exist, but it means nothing in actual math. You can't just plug 'infinity' into an equation and expect to gain anything from it. It's impossible to even think about. I could post a 1 followed by as many zeros as I can fit in the post. How close would that number be to infinity? There is no answer. Even if you kept adding zeros for a thousand more pages.

Time - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it to doesn't exist.

I don't agree. Time is the movement of the universe from big bang until now. Time itself is interwoven into the fabric of the universe. Time really is space, which leads me to:

Space - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it has a boundary.

Spacetime. You believe it has no boundary but most astrophysicists believe both space and time came together with the big bang. So it is indeed like a bubble expanding. What, if anything, is on the other side? I haven't the foggiest.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2
Sure there's solid evidence of it. Like I said, there's no limit to numbers. Just to name one. Unless of course you dispute this fact.

That's why I said you can't quantify it. I didn't say the concept didn't exist, but it means nothing in actual math. You can't just plug 'infinity' into an equation and expect to gain anything from it. It's impossible to even think about. I could post a 1 followed by as many zeros as I can fit in the post. How close would that number be to infinity? There is no answer. Even if you kept adding zeros for a thousand more pages.

Time - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it to doesn't exist.

I don't agree. Time is the movement of the universe from big bang until now. Time itself is interwoven into the fabric of the universe. Time really is space, which leads me to:

Space - is infinite. Unless of course you believe that it has a boundary.

Spacetime. You believe it has no boundary but most astrophysicists believe both space and time came together with the big bang. So it is indeed like a bubble expanding. What, if anything, is on the other side? I haven't the foggiest.

One question - what was there before the "big bang"?

i.e. Did spacetime stopped or never existed before the "big bang"?

a reply to: edmc^2

Will you accept "we don't know"? Also there are other hypotheses about the universe's start, the Big Bang just happens to have the most evidence thus far. We may not have the tools YET to measure and observe the things we need to observe to tell.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: edmc^2

Will you accept "we don't know"? Also there are other hypotheses about the universe's start, the Big Bang just happens to have the most evidence thus far. We may not have the tools YET to measure and observe the things we need to observe to tell.

Come on. Think outside of the box instead getting boxed in like the other "idknowers".

What was there before the "big bang"?

The prime mover - the one who put the bang to the "big bang".

BTW - any idea why it happened 13 / 14 billion years ago?

a reply to: edmc^2

Not my area to speculate. I'm a chemist, not a Physicist. Spiritually speaking (as I've said) before order ( an fhirinne) and light there was darkness and Chaos. The here and now is more important

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: edmc^2

Not my area to speculate. I'm a chemist, not a Physicist. Spiritually speaking (as I've said) before order ( an fhirinne) and light there was darkness and Chaos. The here and now is more important

before order ( an fhirinne) and light there was darkness and Chaos.

This statement always baffles me.

From what I've learned, there was never chaos but order. In fact, the "big bang" theory implies chaos. The Scriptures, on the other hand, shows the order of how things came to be in. In a successive orderly fashion, they came to be.

The order is as predictable as the Table of Elements is predictable.

Even now, the order is very obvious.

Question is - who is behind the order of things?

So where did you learn that? I learned my myths from the writings of my ancestors. They saw noinbweed to assume the need for a WHO behinde the order it just was!