New Chinese J-20 Stealth Fighter Prototype Rolled Out (7th)

a reply to: Zaphod58

It kinda feels like a stealth F-111 in terms of size, maneuverability, etc. With it's massive size and relatively underpowered engines, it's like they've mostly given up on F-22/T-50 style a2a capabilities in favor of something more along the lines of what the Tomcat was.

That said, it certainly looks like they've kicked the Russian's asses in terms of materials/build quality. The shapes and coatings on this thing seem a hell of a lot more mature than the ones on the PAK-FA.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I think with thrust vectoring the aircraft will going to split in pieces.



I dont know why but it resembles me the SU-47 Berkut.

By the airframe shape I would place it at about Saab Viggen maneuvering capability.Faster from 2 engines ,no doubt Russian copies.

I think a lot of people should reserve judgement of this aircraft till they actually see it in action and have data to back up their disdain or judgement of Chinese gear. Just because the crap they send us isn't of a high quality (which is in large part our fault BTW), didn't mean the gear they build for themselves is of the same quality.
They know how to build high quality gear. They've seen enough western blue prints and manufacturing techniques through their robust espionage networks and civilian contacted manufacturing sectors to be experts at it.

a reply to: anzha

I just don't know what to think about these aircraft. It clearly employs some visual tests of tech seen on the f-35. The engines are a big question mark, the ram coatings are unknowns and maybe even nonexistent, and it just doesn't pass the eye test for an air superiority fighter. To me it's like a mig-31/f-35 /typhoon hybrid with HUGE canards. I mean they look HUGE.

I also don't buy that the Chinese just waltzed away with real unaltered technical information. In my mind I think it's more likely we let a Trojan horse of info slip and then said "OMG China stole our prized horse!" When really they got a stud with a bad pedigree meant to mess up their bloodlines.

Pure hypothetical example: ram coating contains x,y, and z. To them oh yes it works wonderfully. Really z was subbed in for w and has some flaw that makes it forever visible in some novel way to our own sensors. Just mindless thoughts after two days of bartending? Maybe(probably), maybe not. It's what I would do.

originally posted by: Caughtlurking
a reply to: anzha

I just don't know what to think about these aircraft. It clearly employs some visual tests of tech seen on the f-35. The engines are a big question mark, the ram coatings are unknowns and maybe even nonexistent, and it just doesn't pass the eye test for an air superiority fighter. To me it's like a mig-31/f-35 /typhoon hybrid with HUGE canards. I mean they look HUGE.

I also don't buy that the Chinese just waltzed away with real unaltered technical information. In my mind I think it's more likely we let a Trojan horse of info slip and then said "OMG China stole our prized horse!" When really they got a stud with a bad pedigree meant to mess up their bloodlines.

Pure hypothetical example: ram coating contains x,y, and z. To them oh yes it works wonderfully. Really z was subbed in for w and has some flaw that makes it forever visible in some novel way to our own sensors. Just mindless thoughts after two days of bartending? Maybe(probably), maybe not. It's what I would do.

I would imagine they do have mathematicians and chemists and their own independent scientists to test what they are building works.

I seems much bigger than a Typhoon, almost twice as big and those engine exhausts seem small. Then it has Canards and Strakes and what are those little vertical stabilisers under the aircraft? Seems like are they venturing into the whole aerodynamically flown by computer but not quite there.

I did work on a development study to put strakes on typhoon back almost 13 years ago and I hear its coming back in an Aerodynamic Mod Kit so that may be a mute point.

AMK

Sorry not the best link but its lazy sunday!

a reply to: Forensick

Oh I'm sure they would research but it's harder to see what's there if you start at the end.. Solve something from the beginning and you're thorough, reverse engineer and a lot of the real learning has gone away.

Remember that the U.S. Government is a kingpin in disinformation. They use the entire populace's money and then tell them they can't see what they've made and get away with it all the while most the population is too dumb or preoccupied to care. Somehow they've got the media making everyone believe the kardashians are more entertaining than what science has to offer after all.

That link will be first thing in the AM reading.

a reply to: anzha

shes a big girl, aint she

Stealth, loool, seriously.

You would see that heap of # coming a mile away, stealth ha.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

They also had access to the coatings for the F-117, RQ-170 and anything used on the helicopter from the bin Laden raid.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: anzha

I can't look at it now, but they've been improving the sensors, and making small aerodynamic changes. They recently revealed a new IRST sensor that was going to become standard. They've also made changes to previous airframes, such as a different radome.

Is it on par with their American counter-part?

It's fun to mock the Chinese in the attempts to copy the aircraft and drones, but the information they steal could be bringing them up to speed with the west.

Is that too far fetched or are they seriously making in-roads?

a reply to: EA006

They're a lot closer than they were. I'd say that they're at most 2 generations back when it comes to advanced fighters, probably closer than that. They aren't on par yet, but they've made serious inroads. We have a big advantage in doctrine and experience. They'll be years catching up with doctrine.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I posted when there weren't many replies. Seems i took too long to type and you had answered already.

Thanks.

a reply to: RanDeLv2

Why do you say that China can't fight a nuclear nation?

a reply to: Zaphod58

What's your estimate on their sensors though.. One thing to have the new ride but what's under the hood? As we all know making an airplane look like the real deal is the easy part. The sensors, computers, and the code to make it all work is where the gravy meets the potatoes.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

They just unveiled a new EOTS and IRST sensor designed for the J-20 and J-31. Supposedly they're capable of detecting a B-2 at 93 miles, and an F-22 at 68 miles. They still haven't been flight tested yet, but they're ready to be installed and flown on both.

I understand cooking isn't anything like aircraft design, but I've cooked my share of "copycat" or "clone" recipes -- and they are never quite as good as the original. There's always something left out, some nuance missing.

I mean, my taco meat LOOKED like Taco Bell's...it even SMELLED like Taco Bell's...but it didn't TASTE like it. Close, but no cigar.

I think we're going to see the same with China. They're going to get close based on observing, learning and stealing? our own aircraft designs. The thing is, if you don't design it yourself fail, learn, and try again you don't gain valuable experience into how the technology works. You build upon your successes and learn from your failures. If you just copy stuff, you'll leapfrog forward, but you won't really know all the valuable little tidbits that the original designers learned along the way.

Oh, the tacos did turn out pretty good 8/10 -- would probably use that seasoning mix again.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Caughtlurking

They just unveiled a new EOTS and IRST sensor designed for the J-20 and J-31. Supposedly they're capable of detecting a B-2 at 93 miles, and an F-22 at 68 miles. They still haven't been flight tested yet, but they're ready to be installed and flown on both.

F-22 detected on IRST at 68 miles. That is some pretty incredible performance if true where did you hear that? Sounds serious.

If we start seeing longer range IR missiles with that type of capability it could be a big blow to stealth.

a reply to: JimTSpock

And aren't the Russian sensors supposed to be even better?

The way I see it right now, is that Russia has the edge on China in terms of sensors/avionics/airframe design, as well as engine design/manufacturing, while China has the edge on materials quality, electronics and airframe manufacturing , but lag in terms of sensor suite design and anything related to engines (those cute little nozzles on the J-20 make me think its power/weight ratio will make a B-1B look like a goddamn harrier).

In all seriousness though, IRSTs are an area that seems to be almost criminally underdeveloped by the USAF. And that's before you get into any conspiracy theories about how the DOD fast-tracked the retirement of their most capable (and only) IRST-equipped air-superiority platform, the F-14, so that, conveniently, none were flying once the "F-15D with fancy paint" F-22 reached IOC.

Wouldn't want any of those creaking old tomcats with their nixon-era phoenix missiles to go about embarrassing the mighty USAF and their latest $200m toys, now would you?

DISCLAIMER: and I actually LIKE the F-22!!!

a reply to: Barnalby

I'd expect the Russians to be more advanced than the Chinese in most areas, they've been doing it longer and have a lot more experience. But they really are catching up fast and it sounds like they are starting to make some genuinely decent things. No doubt their cyber activities are paying off.
F-22 is still top dog but these new IRST systems are cutting into it's stealth advantage quite rapidly it seems. Put this technology into a longer range IR missile and it would not use radar at all.