Top Economists Are Backing Sen. Bernie Sanders on Establishing a $15 an Hour Minimum Wage

a reply to: Edumakated

Entry level jobs, as it so often happens buzz words and talking points do not reflect reality

Only 6 percent of the workers who would benefit from this minimum wage increase are teenagers; i.e., 94 percent are adults.

Since I once again cut this out of context I will supply the full paragraph for you:

If a worker today is employed full time for a full 52-week year at a minimum wage job today, she or he is making $15,080. This is 21 percent below the official poverty line for a family of three. Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour would deliver much needed living standard improvements to 76 million U.S. workers and their families. The average age for these workers is 36 years old and they have been in the labor force for an average of 17 years. Only 6 percent of the workers who would benefit from this minimum wage increase are teenagers; i.e., 94 percent are adults.

source

While I know you are sure you can dismiss my quotes, they have been presented to the senate budget committee, but your comments ats are important too.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Edumakated

The point is that minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry level jobs so someone can demonstrate an ability to come to work on time, learn some skills, and move up. They are not meant to be careers.

That's the whole problem though isn't it? You can tell corporations how it's "supposed" to be until your blue in the face. But there still only going to pay there(unskilled) employee's what there legally obligated to pay them.

I mean, the OP clearly states that the average individual making minimum wage is 36 years old. Which perfectly demonstrates that corporations are happily exploiting the most vulnerable people in society, in order to achieve maximum profits.

How are they being exploited? If you don't like what a business is paying, go get another job! There is no slavery anymore.

The problem is we have an entire segment of the population that has decided having kids before marriage, dropping out of school, and all manners of other social ills that have put them in a situation where they have zero marketable skills. This is compounded by the fact that we are in a technology revolution and service economy where having educated workers is a priority for many companies.

Our manufacturing base has been moved offshore so people can get lower prices and the days of mindlessly being able to drive a widget for $25/hr are gone. The economy is global and these low skilled workers are competitign against people who think $2/day is balling.

a reply to: AlaskanDad

Sure, this would be great as it would start the collapse of the economy and, you know, it's best to buy low.

originally posted by: onequestion

Do you enjoy going out to eat for dinner with your wife and kids?

Probably.

But those pieces of crap making your food are worthless right?

i enjoy going out with the wife and daughter.
and no.
those pieces of crap are worth about 8 bones an hour. maybe 8.50

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
a reply to: AlaskanDad

Sure, this would be great as it would start the collapse of the economy and, you know, it's best to buy low.

The US of A sells arms (our big export market),

imports china's manufactured goods,

and all is well as long as we don't raise federal minimum wage.

Like minimum wage going up will really effect the GNP.

a reply to: Edumakated

How are they being exploited? If you don't like what a business is paying, go get another job! There is no slavery anymore.

Despite your opinions on peoples personal life choices. The fact still remains, that a person who has mouths to feed and is about to have his electricity cut off, is going to work for whatever they offer him... Even if it is a disgraceful rate of under $10 an hour.

It's the very definition of exploiting people. It's not full blown slavery... But it's not far from it, when your exploiting peoples misery.

originally posted by: rockpaperhammock
Ill give another example....this one is literal and real. Buddy went to a real high end school and graduated with a computer science degree and left about 160k in debt. He couldn't find a good job at the time and eventually wasnt doing programming like he studied but is more of a troubleshooter for an insurance company when computers are having issues. I think he makes somewhere around 25 dollars an hour after being there quite some time.

It sounds like your buddy and I are in a pretty similar place. I dual majored at a 2 year school, then realized I was less than a year from a third degree so I did that. Learned through experience that Associates Degrees are literally worse than nothing and went back to school, graduated with a Bachelors in computer science. I didn't do so well in the job search because most companies would prefer to hire with H1B's, and the games industry itself is super competitive so I went back to school for a Bachelors in Simulation/Game Engineering (basically software engineering with some classes using game engines). We'll see how it goes when I get out of school. My skills are worth literally nothing locally, though I did get an offer a few months back to drop out of school, make a small move, and take up a part time position that started at 65k/year programming for a company. I turned it down though because I would rather finish this degree and do what I would like to do which is make games.

The fact is you can educate yourself and his situation he wanted to make computer games. So he could have worked any 15 dollar an hour job and took his extra time to chase his hobby of making games. Now instead he lives in debt and fear that he will lose his job...while lets say the new 15 dollar hour guys can just quit and go find another job easy for the same pay.

Raising the minimum wage to 15 dollars screws over people who had to learn or pay for a particular set of skills.

I disagree. There's value in using/maintaining your skills while getting paid, and there's value in room for advancement. McDonalds offers neither and that's why I see nothing wrong with a lower end skilled labor position paying the same as an unskilled position. I also think there's a lot of value in society for jobs to exist that are readily available and allow a person to cover necessary expenses while not requiring taxpayer help.

As far as your friends debt situation goes, if I had anything to bet that student loan debt will all be discharged in the next 15ish years I would make that bet. I've done all my schooling debt free through a mix of grants, scholarships, and low cost schools paying out of pocket but most aren't in that situation and with the way student loan debts are defaulting combined with the rising cost of education a mass discharge is likely going to be the only thing we can do 1-2 decades from now.

originally posted by: interupt42
Raising the minimum wage is nothing but political distraction. It hasn't worked in the past and it isn't going to work now. We have raised the minimum wages plenty in the past and yet the trend hasn't changed. The poor and middle-class keep getting poorer while the rich keep getting richer.

It has worked many times in the past, until 1980 actually. It stopped working when we reformed how CPI was calculated which changed the on paper interest rates. We then went over a decade without changing minimum wage, and when we did start changing it again it wasn't to the level it should have been. Things have been compounding since then.

originally posted by: Edumakated
If prices don't go up, cost will be eliminated somewhere else. In most cases, businesses will probably eliminate some employees and experiment with technology to increase productivity of the remaining employees. What is better? 10 employees flipping burgers at $7.25/hr or 5 employees flipping burger at $15/hr?

5 employees at $15/hour is better than 10 at $7.50/hour. In one scenario we have 5 self sufficient people and we can take steps to address people getting by that jobs don't exist for. In the worst case we have 5 people relying on government. In the other scenario we have 10 people relying on government to help keep a roof over their heads and all 10 get a very minimal standard of living.

I keep saying over and over again in these forums. There are ONLY 4 solutions to a Government mandated pay increase.

1) Cost increase
2) Lay offs
3) Automation
4) Close down business

Economically that is ALL you get. So choose wisely.

"Top Economists"? Yeah, okay.

a reply to: AlaskanDad


If this passes he'll be our next president without a doubt in my mind.

a reply to: Aazadan

Help me see your vision on how raising the minimum wage will help the middle class and below using the following example:

Today’s prices and wages as an example with selected arbitrary price and wages :
$1 for a Gallon of milk today

$10 an hr wage for the middle class employee. [10% of their hourly income]

$6 an hr wage for the minimum employee. [17% of their hourly income]


What do you envision and expect to happen once the minimum wage is increased:

$? for a Gallon of milk today

$? an hr wage for the middle class employee. [?% of their hourly income]

$? an hr wage for the minimum wage employee. [?%of their hourly income]

a reply to: interupt42

Can you explain how having 75 million people working in low wage jobs is helping the middle class?

Oh wait you can't..

If Minimum wage increases, to a point of matching a "Skilled Laborer" wage, then what happens to the wages of skilled laborers?

The only logical effect is that THEY must increase too. With that and the Obama care final phases kicking in, and looming recession data...this is a recipe for total disaster.

a reply to: interupt42

$10/hr is your idea of middle class???

Really?? :O

a reply to: Aazadan

Well said brother..and good luck with school..I hope you stick with it...as a long time gamer we need good creative motivated developers! Let me know if you ever need a play tester or some free soundtrack music

Interesting concept about the student debt too...I never thought about that but I know the gov has opened up a few new programs to help people go to school it would be nice to see them help with student loans too.

originally posted by: interupt42
Help me see your vision on how raising the minimum wage will help the middle class and below using the following example:

Your example is assuming that prices would double with a doubling of the minimum wage and that wouldn't happen. The price of labor does not make up 100% of the cost of a product. You can see this by looking at Australia for example where their cost of goods is about 10% above that of the US even though their minimum wage is worth $15 USD.

If you would like, I can post some charts I put together last year on this very subject showing the time to purchase the exact same item over time as minimum wage has increased.

In your example, what you would most likely see by doubling the minimum wage is that the cost of goods goes up 20-30%. This results in an increase in purchasing power of about 55% for those at the bottom. The people who are hurt by a minimum wage increase are those who are around the new wage. Minimum wage increases are all about shrinking wealth gaps, which means people in the middle and at the top see a decline in their buying power. This however is not necessarily a bad thing from an economic standpoint because for every person who loses the ability to go out and purchase extras in life, two others gain the ability to do so.

I'm a business owner.

Tell me how, when all things accounted for...overhead, supplies, energy, rent, etc are paid for...where will the WAGES come out of? I'm close to hiring my first employee. If a minimum wage is required, then his/her wage will have to cover more job requirement than initially set.

Because at $15 I'm going to be searching for someone way more skilled than being able to just tape boxes.

a reply to: interupt42

Not sure what your talking about?

Milk = $4.50 a gallon

Minimum wage is $7.50 a hour

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: interupt42

Can you explain how having 75 million people working in low wage jobs is helping the middle class?

Oh wait you can't..

You are changing the argument and I never claimed such a thing.

As a matter of fact I stated many times that things must change. However, raising the minimum wage is just a diversion tactic that has not really fixed the issues. It only buys a little time while the prices get adjusted.

It doesn't matter if you raise the minimum to 15 bucks an hour or they raise it to 100 dollars because what matter is the buying power of the dollar. The market will adjust to what ever percentage the minimum wage is raised plus a little extra. So in essence you will actually lose buying power .

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: interupt42

Not sure what your talking about?

Milk = $4.50 a gallon

Minimum wage is $7.50 a hour

Maybe we should be asking why milk is $4.50 a gallon, in the first place