Neanderthals could be the Stargazers

The team concluded that Neanderthals used their oversized eyes to survive in the lower-light levels in Europe, where the northern latitude means fewer of the sun's rays hit the Earth. (Modern humans also tend to have slightly bigger eyes and visual systems at higher latitudes than those living in lower latitudes, where light levels are higher.) The researchers hypothesized that Neanderthals must, therefore, also have had large brain regions devoted to visual processing. And in fact, Neanderthal skulls suggest that the extinct hominids had elongated regions in the back of their brains, called the "Neanderthal bun," where the visual cortex lies. "It looks like a Victorian lady's head," Dunbar told LiveScience. Anatomically modern humans, meanwhile, evolved in Africa, where the bright light required no extra visual processing, leaving humans free to evolve larger frontal lobes.

Neanderthal brain

The bigger the visual cortex, should in theory give unique vision abilities.

You need to elaborate. There should be a beginning, a middle and an end here. All I can see is an extract and 3 pictures.

a reply to: wacco

We wouldn't dare want to say or think that the early folk were smarter than us would we?

a reply to: Aliensun

Well i could agree with that theory, and i probably think they were.

a reply to: angryhulk

well i cant cause its a statement if i do, i believe, that the Neanderthals could see ultraviolet, they were mostly nocturnal, if you use a ultraviolet object at the night sky you can see most of the stars, and a more developed vision you would be a oragnic telescope, or a stargazer. =)

originally posted by: wacco
a reply to: angryhulk

well i cant cause its a statement if i do, i believe, that the Neanderthals could see ultraviolet, they were mostly nocturnal, if you use a ultraviolet object at the night sky you can see most of the stars, and a more developed vision you would be a oragnic telescope, or a stargazer. =)

Sources...? Anything...? Thanks.

originally posted by: wacco
a reply to: angryhulk

well i cant cause its a statement if i do, i believe, that the Neanderthals could see ultraviolet, they were mostly nocturnal, if you use a ultraviolet object at the night sky you can see most of the stars, and a more developed vision you would be a oragnic telescope, or a stargazer. =)

This doesn't quite parse out as a coherent thought.

"if you use a ultraviolet object at the night sky you can see most of the stars"...what sort of object did you have in mind? Is it emitting UV, or is it colored UV in some way? And what are "most of the stars"? Does the "ultraviolet object" intensify light somehow?

Being an oragnic telescope is sort of a waste, too, are you aware that the limits of resolution in that system are going to be set by the pupil opening? You won't get a lot of resolution.

Finally, the atmosphere is opaque to most stellar UV. So even an oragnic telescope with an ultraviolet object isn't going to be looking at much, other than darkness.

a reply to: Bedlam

This is what you and i would see, neanderthals had much bigger eyes than we have.

Occipital bun : a protuberance of the occipital bone (back of the head) that looks like a hair knot. You have it if you can feel a rounded bone just above the back of your neck (same height as the ears). Low, flat, elongated skull : What matters here is especially the 'elongated skull', as opposed to the back of the skull falling almost vertically, like all East Asians, and most Anatolian, Caucasians and Eastern Europeans. Elongated skull are particularly common in Scandinavia, in the British Isles and in Iberia. Retromolar space posterior to the third molar: i.e. an empty space behind the "wisdom teeth". Supraorbital torus : protruding eyebrow bone (including big deep eye cavity between the eye and eyebrow). Bigger, rounder eyes than average. Broad, projecting nose : angle of the nose bone going more upward than average (not falling straight like a "Greek nose"). Bony projections on the sides of the nasal opening : i.e. nose bone making a "triangle" between the nose and cheeks/orbits. Little or no protruding chin Larger mental foramen in mandible for facial blood supply : this means that the side jaw and cheek are bigger or better supplied in blood than average. This increased blood supply could result in the cheeks being red (like blushing) when doing physical exercise or when the weather is cold. Short, bowed shoulder blades : i.e. shoulder bones curving toward the front more than average. Large round finger tips : typically "flat" and wide finger tips, especially the thumb (e.g. if your thumb is more than 1.5 cm wide). Rufosity : i.e. having red hair, or brown hair with red pigments, or natural freckles. Fair skin, hair and eyes : Neanderthals are believed to have had blue or green eyes, as well as fair skin and light hair. Having spent 300,000 years in northern latitudes, five times longer than Homo sapiens, it is only natural that Neanderthals should have developed these adaptive traits first.

Neandethal eyes

originally posted by: wacco
a reply to: angryhulk

well i cant cause its a statement if i do, i believe, that the Neanderthals could see ultraviolet,

And what makes you believe this?

they were mostly nocturnal,

What is the basis of this? Do you have any citations to support the notion?

if you use a ultraviolet object at the night sky you can see most of the stars,

You won't see any more stars than you see now. You will see some background glow from the Milky Way and when looking at the Sun during the day you would see it with a "glow" around it but you're not going to see any additional stars at night compared to what you would see in the normal visible spectrum. You would just see them slightly differently, with an aura essentially.

and a more developed vision you would be a oragnic telescope, or a stargazer. =)

Are you trying to say that being able to see in the UV range would also give one telescopic vision? I just don't understand what this statement even means.

For reference-

If you could see the ultraviolet part of the spectrum, you would see a number of different objects. This is because our friendly sun gives off quite a bit of light at this frequency, so it would bathe the world in glow, much like it does now. Other cosmic objects also give off UV light, so we would still register other stars and the faint glow of the Milky way. Copiers, computer screens, and various kinds of other electronics (tanning beds) also give off UV light. So you would see these objects, along with the shadows they cast (nothing too spectacular or out of the ordinary, I am guessing).

a reply to: peter vlar

slit pupils, i know, there is no way to prove this.

a reply to: peter vlar

Ill just go with the reptilians theory instead, seems more trustworthy....

originally posted by: wacco

a reply to: Bedlam

This is what you and i would see, neanderthals had much bigger eyes than we have.

Eye size does not confer the ability to see UV. Nor does a larger occipital lobe. They would likely have slightly better low level light perception, might be able to pick out details from a scene you would have trouble seeing (deer in woods, etc). But it doesn't make them into a magic UV telescope.

You actually would NOT be able to see this (this is what you and I would see...) because this is from Astro2, which images in far UV. You can't see it. I can't. A Neanderthal couldn't either, because if for no other reason, the UV that this was taken in does not penetrate the atmosphere. It's just not there to see. I don't think you're going to find any other mammal other than reindeer that can see UV either, and they can't see mid to far UV, because there isn't any at ground level.

a reply to: wacco

To which of my questions was the answer "slit pupils"? Am I correct to assume you are referring to certie pupils like most felines have?

And what exactly is your reptilian theory? Could you possibly expand on what you're trying to get at instead of issuing single line proclamations? It would help to understand what you're going on about.

a reply to: peter vlar

im gonna be honest, we have a civilisation that had astronomy knowledge for over a span of 26.000 years. Only settlers evolution had before was the neanderthals up in the north, since i dont think they had a knowledge making a telescope, im gonna bet they evolved into something different. You and i both know the mythology behind the Vampires, looks and physique, these are mythological creatures that once existed and is now in a fairytale. There are no aliens, no vampires, no lycans, if a person could see what they saw id bet you everything would be explained from the pyramids, stonehenge, Inca, Harappa but i cant can i, since i dont have a specimen of a neanderthal.

Knowledge came from somewhere and i bet you it aint the homo sapiens.

The purpose of altering a skull has a purpose.

Where did the second picture come from. That doesn't look human.

a reply to: Nickn3

it is, you tie a rope around a childs head so the visual cortex gets more room.

originally posted by: wacco
im gonna be honest, we have a civilisation that had astronomy knowledge for over a span of 26.000 years.

What kind of astronomy knowledge do you think existed? Members of the genus Homo have been walking or sailing the globe for nearly 2 million years since Homo Erectus first left Africa ~1.8MA. People have been watching the night skies, charting the seasons, phases of the moon and rudimentary constellations for as long as they have been traversing the globe. Neandertal were sailing to islands beyond the horizon line and would very likely have had to know how to use the stars to navigate such distances and likely would have done the same when travelling on land. None of that however, means they had intimate knowledge of the type you would get from having a telescope as that seems to be what you are alluding towards.

What civilization are you referring to and what specific timespan did this 26,000 year period take place in? I don't mean to come off as brusque, but you're not being very clear.

Only settlers evolution had before was the neanderthals up in the north, since i dont think they had a knowledge making a telescope, im gonna bet they evolved into something different.

Again, this is not very clear but if I follow you correctly, that just isn't the case. Neanderthal evolved in Europe from earlier hominids. Specifically H. Heidelbergensis which was a European variant of H. Erectus. There were other hominids in Europe 100's of thousands of years ago as well like H. Antecessor for example. What did Neanderthal evolve into? I just don't understand what you're trying to say here. We've got a rather good understanding of the fossil record and now that we've fully decoded both the human and Neanderthal genomes, we can look for genetic evidence as well and none exists that Neanderthal were ever anything but Neanderthal.

You and i both know the mythology behind the Vampires, looks and physique, these are mythological creatures that once existed and is now in a fairytale.

What evidence do you have that vampires were once a real live living being that is now relegated to myth? Are you implying that Neanderthal were the basis for vampires?

There are no aliens, no vampires, no lycans, if a person could see what they saw id bet you everything would be explained from the pyramids, stonehenge, Inca, Harappa but i cant can i, since i dont have a specimen of a neanderthal.

Seeing as how Neanderthals died 10's of thousands of years before any of those civilizations and their associated cities and megalithic constructions...I highly doubt it. What do you think a Neanderthal specimen would tell you? I've worked on their remains so I may be able to answer your query.

Knowledge came from somewhere and i bet you it aint the homo sapiens.

Then why is there a roughly 35KA gap between the demise of the Neanderthals and the beginning of recorded human civilization?

The purpose of altering a skull has a purpose.

It's not to make room for an increased visual cortex. We have examined the brain cases of individuals subjected to skull binding and despite the outward morphology being altered, their actual brain structure was no different than that of any other modern humans. Altering cranial morphology does not alter the genetics of how the brain develops and you will not get an outcome similar to a Neanderthal brain. Additionally, with the increased visual cortex, Neanderthal lost social skills. There's always a trade off.

a reply to: peter vlar

This is the reference to the 26.000 year span that someone had to know, and its based om empirical evidence.

Sumerian Babylon

The neanderthal is the basis for Vampires along with the whole monarchy

Skull of homo erectus



Skull neanderthal and homo sapiens



There are huge differencies in parts of the brain where some functions lies, homo sapiens has a more developed social brain and neanderthal vision

originally posted by: wacco
a reply to: peter vlar

This is the reference to the 26.000 year span that someone had to know, and its based om empirical evidence.

I'm sorry but perhaps there's a language barrier here but I'm just not following you. Are you claiming that Neanderthals mapped out a 26,000 year long cycle of astronomical procession? Because your link on Babylonian Astronomy says nothing about a 26KA cycle and instead discusses the achievements and advances of astronomy and its calculations during different periods of the history of the area under various rulers. What it says is that they could, using arithmetic, chart out astronomical cycles and predict lunar and planetary motion. That's not the same thing as what I think you are telling me. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The neanderthal is the basis for Vampires along with the whole monarchy

Citations?

Skull of homo erectus

Skull neanderthal and homo sapiens

OK... I'm quite familiar with them already but it's always fun to look anyways.

There are huge differencies in parts of the brain where some functions lies, homo sapiens has a more developed social brain and neanderthal vision

Yes, I said as much in my previous reply. It doesn't support what you're saying about Neanderthals ability to have telescopic vision though.

a reply to: peter vlar

no im claiming the Sumerians knew about a 26Ka intervall, which means there is a dropout around 20ka and if im not misstaken the oldest civilisation around the area is at most 8000BC, so someone had to had knowledge which surpasses the first civilisation before the crescent moon area knew about it since its documented, and i dont believe in Aliens on planet earth.

Vampires and a fine story, common traits on a royal bloodline, blond, blue eyes and a huge nose.

Royal Blood







Three parts of the world, same trait.

The Eyes of the neanderthal, just a theory. But the timeframes overlapses.