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consciousness is a develoment of the organism

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posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 01:28 AM
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We seem to think it is consciousness that controls the organism, that human organisms are mere vehicles made of (lowly terrestrial) matter and that the 'mind', the 'spirit' comes from a higher place, another realm. But in reality it is the body which has developed consciousness and uses it as a tool to control itself. Thus the mind/body separation is just an illusion. When you think of it, what do we really consciously control ? The movements of the body, and... that's all. Walking, making noises with our mouth, closing/opening eyes, it's not much. In fact, it is very little compared to all the things that the organism does automatically : digestion, breathing, hearth beat, hearing, temp regulation, brain activity, growing, producing babies etc..

If we then see consciousness as an organ just like any other organ : why is it that we have this impression that we are separate from the rest of the organism ? Does it have to do with evolution thus survival ? Is it cultural, learned ? Is it both ? If it is an evolutionary development, there seems to be a paradox, because why do we have this feeling of separation if the goal is survival ? Wouldn't it be more logical/efficient from a survival pov if the mind identified deeply with the totality of the organism ? And if it is learned, cultural, then what are we doing to make that happen ?

It's as if at some point, the organ of consciousness has hijacked the rest of the organism, it took power, a coup d'etat. It installed itself as king of the organism and thoughts, feelings, emotions etc., became everything. The mind can kill its own organism because of a feeling, it can starve the organism because of a thought, etc..

WHY ?




posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 01:30 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

How do you know?



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 02:27 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

The very idea of consciousness has always fascinated me.
If we view it as a purely biological phenomena, then where does it begin along the cognitive chain?
I'd imagine reverse-engineering the process may provide some clues.
Shut down one function at a time until perception of self and awareness ceases, at least as far as we understand 'consciousness'.
For example, brain trauma or chemically-induced changes in perception (and some may even argue that sleep falls into a similar category) cause an altered experience of awareness, due to the shutdown of receptors or signal transfer in the brain. How does this dis-associative effect or lack of normal cognition tread on what we consider consciousness? And at which point may we consider an individual unconscious?
It's amazing stuff to ponder



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 02:31 AM
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originally posted by: gosseyn
When you think of it, what do we really consciously control ? The movements of the body, and... that's all. Walking, making noises with our mouth, closing/opening eyes, it's not much. In fact, it is very little compared to all the things that the organism does automatically : digestion, breathing, hearth beat, hearing, temp regulation, brain activity, growing, producing babies etc..


There is no one controlling the movements of the body. It is strange that you can see that digestion, breathing, heart beat, hearing, temp regulation, brain activity, growing, growing babies all happen automatically but you assume there is conscious control of walking, lips moving and speaking etc.
Can you even know what your next thought will be?
There is no 'you doing' anything. All is just simply happening.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 02:33 AM
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posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 02:55 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

Memory plays a significant part of it for sure. Memory both long and short term establishes who you are. As you go from unconscious to conscious, like when you wake up for example, you start forming more memories as well as a short self check of who and where you are. If for example you were to wake up, having no clue where you are, you would still be yourself just in a strange place. However, if you awoke in a strange place, then quickly realized you were in a different body as well, what would be the result??? Would it be possible to still be the old you once you realize that such a person may not have ever existed at all and you are really someone else??? But to even know that would require you to believe that you were that old self first???

What makes you you after all??? You have your past experiences that shape the way you think and feel and act but what if you forget some of those experiences??? Would you keep the same imprinting and not know why or would you then be open for a new imprint of some kind that would shape your character???

Some people say that you are who you are and it couldn't be any different. The reason I am me and not you is not from our choices at all and that given a million chances I would choose the same every time. Others say each choice you make could have been different and resulted in a completely different reality all together. I wonder who is right if anyone.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 03:23 AM
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originally posted by: gosseyn
But in reality it is the body which has developed consciousness and uses it as a tool to control itself.

The body is an appearance within consciousness.
Put it this way - when you are not awake can you see or know the body? Only when you are awake does the body appear. The body appears as sensation - it is appearing as sight (the body is seen).
All that is appearing now is appearing within Or as, consciousness.
Consciousness is like the space in which everything appears.

In deep sleep the space is empty of things. When the light comes on the space is full of light moving - the light is spit into many 'things' - the senses split it into - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and all sensation - including thought.
The light is just moving all by itself and makes the current configuration.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 04:09 AM
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Consciousness may have initially developed from the body, however at some point instead of primal survival mental processes controlling the body; the mind decides to reprogram itself to perform acts which have no survival benefits, or even become counter productive to the self preservation of the being itself.

Consciousness is the difference between the mind saying eat that apple because it provides nourishment, and I think ill have a banana because I want to be random.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 04:54 AM
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Imagine that life is a movie on a cinema screen. Everything that appears in the movie is just happening.
You are the cinema screen - you are not any particular separate thing that is appearing on the screen. The illusion is that you are in a character (appearing in the movie on the screen) and that you have control over the character in some way (speaking or thinking or any doing) but you are not.
You are the entire screen - the entire image is appearing out of it. The image is never separate from the screen - the image is made of the screen.
The screen is consciousness - it is the space that things appear in - and the things that appear are made of nothing other.
edit on 19-7-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 05:16 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn
After reading the opening post again - I think you are speaking of 'self' consciousness.


This talk with Paul Smit took place in July 2014 (Jetzt-TV, Paul Smit Talk01).
Basics about Nonduality (Advaita) and awakening; no “I” there anyhow; the easiest way to explain it…; not two – everything is one; different names for that one: aliveness, one energy, consciousness, God, …; the universe, made from energy in the form of matter, plants, animals and humans, moved by nobody and with nobody in, but the humans think they have free will and they are doing things; the default network in the brain, which starts by the age of one and a half to create the feeling of self-awareness (ego); even when the self-awareness, the feeling of I, was not present like while hearing music, afterwards the ego claims that it was doing this, like by saying: “I was hearing music”; in animals no self reflections like in human beings; the very small bla-bla-mind who is creating stories for everything that is just happening and who is thinking it is controlling the whole system; the I and the strategies around it, becoming dominant or pleasing; about the idea to have to control everything, and the frustration, fear, blaming and guilt out of this, and the suffering and stress out of this – and techniques to get rid of this like buying stuffs, drinking bear, eating chocolate, having a career, and when all of this doesn’t work anymore may the idea comes up: Let’s become spiritual and become a better version of myself; liberation with the help by Nonduality by seeing that the first idea of being a separate “me” is just an idea; when in awakening everything repressed comes up; Paul writing a book about Nonduality and love and relationship and about the idea of a “perfect relationship”; when free, liberated people come together and having a relationship it really becomes simple without manipulation; no more lies to please somebody; in separation love becomes conditional; the shift that there is nobody to blame because there is nobody inside; phases when people hear the first time about Nonduality / Advaita: confusion, Advaita love, “enlightened” behavior, phase of superiority, Advaita shuffle, environment like family, friends and colleges, old pains coming up; about the “Advaita police”, when the mind claims to know better about Advaita than other people; when just listening to people is a help for them; also in the partner there is nobody in, doing something or having a choice; we are just happening, there is no control at all; when we want to be good in something we practice it – but for enlightenment this doesn’t work, which seem to be mean; there is nobody in – not a popular message; no more preference anymore to not feel pain; for everyone it is happening in a different way; the irreversible process of awakening up – ones it is seen it is seen; so simple: just this!; also falling in love just happens; deep trust that live is carrying “us”; openness in companies to hear about Nonduality and about how a human being is functioning; often there is “only” awareness and no self-awareness in daily live; the question how Paul is rising his son; no way to rise a kid in an “enlightened” way; also a child can not choose what it does or wants; we are not our thoughts and not our body; the tendency to repress everything painful; not taking the problems of somebody else serious although not the problems of one’s clients; the capacity of human beings to look through the illusion of being a person.

edit on 19-7-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 05:42 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

The body did not create Spirit (consciousness), Spirit created body.

Mind over matter, placebo effect.

Consciousness has the power to heal the body.

edit on 19-7-2015 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 05:50 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

So the mind can both heal and hurt the body. However it is only assumed that mind survives without a body. No evidence can be shown that it can however. We can neither show that it survives past our physical death nor that it was here before our physical birth. So it may very well be a result of the body as much as the function of the body results from the mind. Neither can be said to "be" without the other. That would mean that they aren't separate at all but linked in symbiosis with each other.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 05:52 AM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: gosseyn

The body did not create Spirit (consciousness), Spirit created body.


The body of light is not separate from consciousness - it is consciousness.

All that IS.

Nothing appearing as everything - it is all source/spirit.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 06:00 AM
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There is just what is appearing - this light that is moving is all there is. There is no one who can find this light because there is ONLY the light.
The light appears as everything that is happening.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 06:25 AM
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Can the 'separate self' in 'self' consciousness, lose the self that produces the sense of separation?

edit on 19-7-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 09:55 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

You ignore those events/phenomena that appear every now and then that come from outside of the human brain which is where you would site consciousness. If you don't allow outside phenomena from elsewhere that has no connection to your or anyone's consciousness then surely you must wonder what is going on when an outside force comes into your consciousness with a smartful shock or even hurt?



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 11:06 AM
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It's better to think it is not an illusion. Being an automaton is something a lot of people could not handle. The ego would rather destroy the organism than accept it for many.
If we are nothing but spacedust, what's the point? Why exist at all, or at least why be able to ponder the idea?
If I and others are just spacedust, nothing more the world gets really cold, because people become nothing, Hurting another would just be changing matter and nerve impulses, nothing is really hurt because it is the same a rock.
If a lot of people accepted this it would be quite dangerous. Some psychopaths and sociopaths do have ideas similar to this.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

You find it strange because I didn't want to enter into too much details, I wanted to keep it simple. I wanted to talk about something the vast majority of people can relate to. The first step is to make people think about their consciousness, to make them ask questions so they can make their own conclusions. If right away you tell them that 'I' is an illusion, they WILL fight what you say and they will stop thinking, or ignore what you say altogether.

When you enter an ongoing conversation and you say "it is just happening, no one is doing anything", do you realise that for the vast majority of people, that means nothing ? They can't relate to that. You're presenting them with a conclusion but not with the path that leads to the conclusion.

Besides, the question you never try to answer is the "why". Why is there an illusion ? Why billions of people have this very deep feeling that they are "I". Why whole religions and philosophies have based their doctrines on this separation between "I" and the organism ? Is it genetics/evolution, is it learned ? Is it both ?
edit on 19-7-2015 by gosseyn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 01:21 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: arpgme

So the mind can both heal and hurt the body. However it is only assumed that mind survives without a body. No evidence can be shown that it can however. We can neither show that it survives past our physical death nor that it was here before our physical birth. So it may very well be a result of the body as much as the function of the body results from the mind. Neither can be said to "be" without the other. That would mean that they aren't separate at all but linked in symbiosis with each other.


Yes, exactly, but at some point this symbiosis has been broken. Now the mind thinks it is different from the organism, separate from it; and there seems to be a paradox : if consciousness is a product of the organism, why this feeling of separation with the organism ? Is it just an idea, something learned, it is just a 'habit' that comes from having memories, like you said in your previous post ? Or does it just happen to present an evolutionary advantage : so it would mean that evolution has produced a mind that feels separated from the organism, and this is exactly what gives the inseparable couple mind-organism an evolutionary advantage ?



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 02:47 PM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: gosseyn

The body did not create Spirit (consciousness), Spirit created body.

Mind over matter, placebo effect.

Consciousness has the power to heal the body.

Are you sure it is not the ego itself which pushes you believe in what you say ? The ego wants everything to himself, it is its raison de vivre. It is but normal that the ego thinks it has created everything and will still be there when everything else ceases to exist. But you're not your ego, you are the point of consciousness that is experimenting the ego. Just like you're not your thoughts, but you're the consciousness that is experimenting the thoughts.



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