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Beyond Freedom

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posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 01:49 PM
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The word enlightenment has a lot of heaviness and stickiness and is in fact an extremely misleading phrase for serious seekers. The word implies the attainment of a specific state, perhaps a more peaceful and wholesome state. But this cannot be true freedom because the concept of 'state' implies a specific mental perspective, limited by its own existence.

On the other hand, the term 'liberation' implies freedom from all states, including the capacity for awareness of any state. I am talking of a total freedom from the known and a dissolution into unknowing.

Nisargadatta spoke of this absolute dissolution on many occasions. He said that even what we call consciousness is itself a conditioned mental state, and is in fact the beginning of seperation. Consciousness only exists in relationship with a seemingly separate world. If you are conscious, you are conscious of something, and that intrinsically implies a seperation of the 'known' and the 'knower'.

In an absolute sense, consciousness doesn't actually exist. There is no knowing of anything. 'Reality', if you will, neither exists nor fails to exist. Both existence and non-existence are essentially illusory in this sense. True freedom, therefore, is not a state, but is actually the 'reality' before the capacity for states to appear at all. And because all states are based on absolute illusion, freedom is already the case, absolutely. Liberation, then, in a relative sense, is the end of illusion, which never existed.




posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ

sounds like a quazi- existence to me..

whatever next?

funbox



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:04 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ

Freedom is an illusion
We are all governed by Universal Law ...
Order from chaos

However the masses are governed by Man made Laws ... some seek to protect the vulnerable whilst others are petty interference and at worst harm those who do not comply to those rules

There is is a sense of well being attached to be in accord/harmony with Universal Law
If people were free to do as they will then chaos would ensue ... the nature of Humanity being such that is prone to base emotions

If all were truly enlightened ... Man made laws would not be required
The true freedom people have is that of the choices they make



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet

The apparent universe is absolutely and unquestionably free to appear as it is currently appearing. Any universal laws are completely free to exist as they do. There can be no question of a lack of freedom because all things are as they are.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: funbox
The quasi-existence of quasi-existence is beyond quasi-existence itself

or not



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ

the choice to create, or not, is entirely up to you , but chaos will endeavour to upset your plans..

funbox



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ


On the other hand, the term 'liberation' implies freedom from all states, including the capacity for awareness of any state.


Does it also include freedom from life and freedom from love/spirit?

"freedom from" is negative, it what you have freedom to[/] [do/have] that matters.

Having freedom from all things is having no freedom at all, but just being frozen/dead/still.

Freedom to joy, freedom to peace, freedom to fairness/equality, freedom to live, love, and experience is Life/Movement/Energy.

Some people are in the yin (darkness/stillness) of fear and the yang (light/energy/passion) of anger or greed.

The Yang (Light/Energy/Aliveness) of Joyful Love is what matters most. All Life knows intuitively that it is natural to be Happy.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ


On the other hand, the term 'liberation' implies freedom from all states, including the capacity for awareness of any state.


Does it also include freedom from life and freedom from love/spirit?

"freedom from" is negative, it what you have freedom to[/] [do/have] that matters.

Having freedom from all things is having no freedom at all, but just being frozen/dead/still.

Freedom to joy, freedom to peace, freedom to fairness/equality, freedom to live, love, and experience is Life/Movement/Energy.

Some people are in the yin (darkness/stillness) of fear and the yang (light/energy/passion) of anger or greed.

The Yang (Light/Energy/Aliveness) of Joyful Love is what matters most. All Life knows intuitively that it is natural to be Happy.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 02:52 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

No one is questioning your right to romanticize about a life full of love and joy, not at all. You are free to be as happy as you are. But happiness is not freedom.

When the thinking mind falls into a natural, unobtrusive rhythm, when it no longer sees utter not-knowing as a threat, freedom is seen to be the true nature of whatever arises. And maybe there's immense joy in that.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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The thing about it is that it's not an experience. It's the recognition of the not-knowing upon which all experiences appear to manifest.

There's really nothing you can do to bring about this 'transformation'. Any action you take with the hope of bringing about any change is just strengthening the grip of illusion. Illusion cannot dispel itself.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 04:56 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ



The thing about it is that it's not an experience. It's the recognition of the not-knowing upon which all experiences appear to manifest.


i a little like learning to throw yourself at the ground and missing... what was it , something about distrac



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ


You are free to be as happy as you are. But happiness is not freedom.


You define Liberation as "Freedom from all states".

Freedom from all states, would mean freedom from all thought, action, and expression. That type of freedom is not freedom at all. It is less freedom than being a prisoner in jail or a person in a straight-jacket, because at least they can still have the ability to be think, imagine, and dream.

There is no creativity, no life, no expression in a freedom from all states.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: arpgme
Once you're dead, is there still creativity and expression? What will be there to be expressed then? What is there now?

Freedom isn't freedom to do what you want, it's freedom to be who you are. The only reason that you would feel 'trapped' or 'imprisoned' is that you believe that you are somebody who can make choices. Only a delusional mind is capable of believing that freedom lies in action.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 05:27 PM
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a reply to: funbox

It's just an endless freefall through nothing at all



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

There's nothing wrong with a delusional mind, not at all. It just means that one still believes that salvation lies within sensual gratification. Pleasure is wonderful, of course, but eventually all pleasures will end. And even the greatest bliss is just another pleasure.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 06:24 PM
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originally posted by: HarryTZ
The word enlightenment has a lot of heaviness and stickiness and is in fact an extremely misleading phrase for serious seekers. The word implies the attainment of a specific state, perhaps a more peaceful and wholesome state. But this cannot be true freedom because the concept of 'state' implies a specific mental perspective, limited by its own existence.

On the other hand, the term 'liberation' implies freedom from all states, including the capacity for awareness of any state. I am talking of a total freedom from the known and a dissolution into unknowing.

Nisargadatta spoke of this absolute dissolution on many occasions. He said that even what we call consciousness is itself a conditioned mental state, and is in fact the beginning of seperation. Consciousness only exists in relationship with a seemingly separate world. If you are conscious, you are conscious of something, and that intrinsically implies a seperation of the 'known' and the 'knower'.

In an absolute sense, consciousness doesn't actually exist. There is no knowing of anything. 'Reality', if you will, neither exists nor fails to exist. Both existence and non-existence are essentially illusory in this sense. True freedom, therefore, is not a state, but is actually the 'reality' before the capacity for states to appear at all. And because all states are based on absolute illusion, freedom is already the case, absolutely. Liberation, then, in a relative sense, is the end of illusion, which never existed.


A piece of rock is free, indeed. It enjoys freedom on all levels because it doesn't feel anything, it doesn't have what it takes to be in any state.

But us, on the other hand, cannot do without the brain. We want to feel what is true and what is free of any filtration/interpretation, but the brain in itself is a translator, an interpret of what exists, a machine that cannot do anything else than what it is made for.

You say true liberation is freedom from all states, is not being in any state. But what if true freedom is knowing it all, what if true freedom means being in all states at the same time, until they eventually cancel each other. Or at least being aware that there are other states of being. The old saying "know that you don't know", comes to my mind here. Always being aware that the state I am in right now is temporary and incomplete, that there are other things out there I am not aware of, that other states are possible and probably happen at every second. Ultimately, it makes me think that true happiness comes from understanding that we can't be in control of everything, and compared to all the things that could be controlled in this universe, we probably have control on 0.0000...00000001% of it. So I guess the solution is to just... be, and letting go.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ


Once you're dead, is there still creativity and expression? What will be there to be expressed then? What is there now?


When the body is filled with Spirit/Life, it moves, it expresses, and it breathes. When it is dead, it does not. That was my point, that freedom from all states/experiences is death.




Only a delusional mind is capable of believing that freedom lies in action.


If it were delusional, it wouldn't be true. Speaking out against slavery (an action) led to freedom. Speaking out against the opression of gays led to less bullying and marriage equality.

You say it's delusional. Actual experience shows that it isn't.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 06:43 PM
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a reply to: gosseyn

It's really a paradox because actually there are no states at all. Yet we experience apparent states through the pathological mechanisms of the brain and believe they are real. So in one sense there is nothing called freedom because everything is already as free as possible. But the end of suffering is a result of truly seeing the freedom of ALL apparent states.

As for having very limited control of things, really we have no control over anything because there is no seperate entity at all in you that has the ability to choose. Your actions are no different than the breeze blowing or the rain falling. The only difference is the thought there (which you have no control over) that says you have choice in anything. It's a meaningless affair, worrying about free will.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 06:53 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

There's always life in the body, the body is itself life. But upon what we call physical death the body is no longer concerned with seeking or grasping, it's free to rot and be dispelled back into the universe.

And I can't deny that the personal liberties you speak of are important to live a reasonably comfortable life, and that it is natural to desire them, but those have nothing to do with absolute freedom. To put this in perspective, imagine the air around us. Whether you're the richest man in the world or the poorest slave, the air you breathe is the same. The air you breathe has nothing to do with your life circumstances (unless maybe you work in a factory filled with toxic fumes, so maybe this isn't as good of an analogy as I would have hoped), just as the life you live has nothing to do with the freedom that you are.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 07:18 PM
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originally posted by: HarryTZ
a reply to: gosseyn

It's really a paradox because actually there are no states at all. Yet we experience apparent states through the pathological mechanisms of the brain and believe they are real. So in one sense there is nothing called freedom because everything is already as free as possible. But the end of suffering is a result of truly seeing the freedom of ALL apparent states.

As for having very limited control of things, really we have no control over anything because there is no seperate entity at all in you that has the ability to choose. Your actions are no different than the breeze blowing or the rain falling. The only difference is the thought there (which you have no control over) that says you have choice in anything. It's a meaningless affair, worrying about free will.


At this point we should make a distinction between understanding and being. Those are not equal things. I can eventually understand everything and anything (I call that intellectual enlightenment as opposed to emotional enlightenment which is commonly discussed), but I cannot be in every state at every moment, I cannot even choose to be in no state at all. You speak of understanding, and that is fine, but I speak of being and that is fine too. There is the whole and there is every part that makes the whole. You speak of the whole and I speak of the relations between some parts. You speak of the objective reality and I speak of how we can approximate the true reality (without any interpretation of any form) through our subjectivity. Being adapted to this true reality means to have a thought model of reality that is as close as possible to the true reality, like a map that would be so precise that at some point it could become indiscernible from the terrain that it is supposed to represent.



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