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Beyond Freedom

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posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 07:26 PM
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a reply to: gosseyn

The universe is a thought... no model can possibly represent actual reality because reality is nothing.




posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 07:36 PM
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originally posted by: HarryTZ
a reply to: gosseyn

The universe is a thought... no model can possibly represent actual reality because reality is nothing.


It might be a nothing, but there is the nothing and there is how we deal with the nothing.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 08:10 PM
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a reply to: HarryTZ

Yes, there's air all around for everyone regardless of circumstances. That is a blessing, but it does not describe freedom; even a slave or someone locked in a room can breathe air.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: HarryTZ

Yes, there's air all around for everyone regardless of circumstances. That is a blessing, but it does not describe freedom; even a slave or someone locked in a room can breathe air.


What he wants to say, is that for example the very fact of living on this planet makes you a slave to gravity. He means trying to act on reality makes you a slave to the perspective, thoughts and state of mind that led you to act. What he says is not false, but could we still talk about a concept like freedom in a universe where there would be no obstacle to said freedom ? The concept of freedom usually doesn't come alone, it's usually freedom 'of something'. A being which would be limitless would never have invented a concept such as freedom, it would be alien to this being.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 09:56 PM
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a reply to: arpgme
Well no, of course it doesn't describe freedom. Really, freedom IS those circumstances, freedom IS the slave in bondage just as much as it is the so-called enlightened state. We all have the freedom to be exactly what we are at all times, even when we don't like whatever is arising. But in actualizes Buddha-nature, in the 'stateless state' if you will, there tends to be a natural relaxation into and unconditional acceptance of whatever arises. And that slave in bondage is just as capable of living through that stateless state of absolute acceptance as any other man or woman. There can be immense pain and discomfort, but it is seen as what it is, just an experience. So in that sense, the experience of unbearable misery and the experience of unutterable bliss are exactly the same. There's an equanimity in the enlightened state, and that equanimity, that seeing of everything as fundamentally the same, is the ineffable peace that has been spoken of for millennia by the greatest sages and mystics of the world.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 08:47 AM
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Before I had studied Ch'an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.

(Qingyuan Weixin, as translated by D T Suzuki, Essays on Zen Buddhism.)


The above quote came immediately to mind when reading this thread. I see you also have a quote from Osho in your footer. He also used to use the term 'surrender' which meant stopping conceptualization of reality. Reality is one thing, the facts that we choose to observe in reality are not reality, it is like looking at it through a stained glass pane. The mind cannot conceive the whole, regardless the number of facts known. The map is not the terrain.
edit on 2-7-2015 by TatTvamAsi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 09:03 AM
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originally posted by: TatTvamAsi

Before I had studied Ch'an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.

(Qingyuan Weixin, as translated by D T Suzuki, Essays on Zen Buddhism.)


The above quote came immediately to mind when reading this thread. I see you also have a quote from Osho in your footer. He also used to use the term 'surrender' which meant stopping conceptualization of reality. Reality is one thing, the facts that we choose to observe in reality are not reality, it is like looking at it through a stained glass pane. The mind cannot conceive the whole, regardless the number of facts known. The map is not the terrain.


On the other hand what the mind can do is being aware that it cannot know everything. It can know that it cannot know all, and this is knowledge in itself. If I look at a tree and I think to myself "this is a tree", it doesn't mean that I have taken the tree inside my mind, and I have to understand that there is no way I would be able to 'know' the tree for what it really is, and I could give this tree any definition I want, it would still be incomplete. For what is the tree ? Is it wood ? Is it atoms ? Is it energy ? Is it a fruits bearer ? Is it a bird's habitat ? Is it fuel to light a fire ? What about the structure of the tree and its roots, how can I know that with precision, and where would I draw the line where I will say 'this is precise enough' ? Etc..

Asking what something is, is ultimately asking what the universe is.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 09:56 AM
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originally posted by: TatTvamAsi

I see you also have a quote from Osho in your footer.


Thanks for reminding me to get rid of that.

Con men have no place on my footer anymore!



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

You will never know what the tree is. Not even god knows what he created. He has nothing to compare it to. A tree is an absolutely original piece of creation, it wasn't inspired by anything.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 11:04 AM
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originally posted by: gosseyn

originally posted by: HarryTZ
a reply to: gosseyn

The universe is a thought... no model can possibly represent actual reality because reality is nothing.


It might be a nothing, but there is the nothing and there is how we deal with the nothing.

The illusion is that there is a you separate to life that can deal with it. There is nothing individual - life is simply happening.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: HarryTZ

en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)
en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)
en.wikipedia.org...(Gnosticism)

There has been much written about this subject already and some wonderful ideas to get lost in. That's a decent starting point imo.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: gosseyn

originally posted by: HarryTZ
a reply to: gosseyn

The universe is a thought... no model can possibly represent actual reality because reality is nothing.


It might be a nothing, but there is the nothing and there is how we deal with the nothing.

The illusion is that there is a you separate to life that can deal with it. There is nothing individual - life is simply happening.

We have no other choice than to deal with the illusion. There is understanding and there is being, and we cannot do without being and dealing with stuff.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 11:53 AM
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originally posted by: gosseyn

We have no other choice than to deal with the illusion. There is understanding and there is being, and we cannot do without being and dealing with stuff.

Life is just happening - there is no one who has to deal with life. The separate me is the illusion.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: gosseyn

Your need to 'deal' with the illusion is actually the illusion itself. No one is dealing with anything at all because there is nobody.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: HarryTZ
a reply to: gosseyn

Your need to 'deal' with the illusion is actually the illusion itself. No one is dealing with anything at all because there is nobody.

Are you not dealing with it right now ? Haven't you created this thread ? Aren't you answering to me ? Aren't you going to read this ?

My understanding is this : we live in the matrix, we know it, but we cannot break out of it, thus we have to deal with the matrix. Both of you, itisnowagain and harrytz, seem to only talk about the matrix in itself and how it is an illusion, but I look at the whole picture "with us in it, dealing with it".



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: gosseyn
What do you mean by 'the matrix'?



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: gosseyn
What do you mean by 'the matrix'?


What do you mean by "the illusion" ? Isn't an illusion something made to trick something else ? But if as you say there is no one, no separation, then what is there to trick ? Nothing. Which means that your concept of illusion is not adapted to the situation and you have to change your concepts, OR there is in fact a separation between the illusion and the target of the illusion and you have to change your theory/perspective.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: gosseyn
That is the problem with this sort of discussion. One must not deny the reality of human living, and yet to have a clear understanding one must see through it at all levels. The two must go together, humanity and reality. They operate perfectly in daily life and yet here we are, attempting to explain one without the other. But because humanity is contained within reality, it seems reality must take precedence. The only solution is to see them not as two conflicting understandings, but as a single and seamless understanding.



posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:31 PM
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posted on Jul, 2 2015 @ 12:41 PM
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originally posted by: gosseyn

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: gosseyn
What do you mean by 'the matrix'?


What do you mean by "the illusion" ? Isn't an illusion something made to trick something else ? But if as you say there is no one, no separation, then what is there to trick ? Nothing. Which means that your concept of illusion is not adapted to the situation and you have to change your concepts, OR there is in fact a separation between the illusion and the target of the illusion and you have to change your theory/perspective.



The illusion is that there is in fact any such thing as an illusion at all. This is not an intellectual understanding, it is a pointer to the fundamental unknowing that is reality. Because you don't even know you're alive, you can't say life is one thing and not another. But at the same time, it is never what you think it is. I don't even know what I'm saying at all.




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