Other Countries Change Their Gun Laws After Mass Shootings. Why Not America?

a reply to: Answer

I don't think Jewish people armed with pistols, shotguns and rifles would have prevented the holocaust.

And in today's world with drones, F-35's, stealth bombers, ect -- the citizenry can't hope to ever "protect" themselves against the federal government. It's not possible, and is a fallacious argument.

It's already to late for the people to be able to "defend themselves" against a tyrannical government. That argument can't be used anymore.

a reply to: NavyDoc
No they won't start murdering people all of a sudden. Why do people take that stance when debating, you know im not suggesting that.of course they won't lose all morals. But the death rate WOULD go up, definetly, simply due to human nature. And I believe if the farmers were under the impression that it was their god given right to carry a gun on them outside of their houses/hunting grounds I genuinely believe it would go up slightly more again.

If you feel you have the right to carry a gun, you feel you have the right to use it, otherwise pointless having one. This concept is what i believe will increase the gun related death rate.I have no statistical proof, links,data or ratios to validate my opinion, it's just an opinion I base on life experiences and observations, that's all. My opinion is no more valid then the next persons.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Fair point but I feel their morals will adapt to the surrounding area. If people in close proximity don't shares the same social cohesions and reciprocate the good they once knew in their previous communities, they will soon realise that adopting this mentality in a more individual driven area would be to their detriment. Although they will still take the moral high ground in many situations

a reply to: MystikMushroom

And in today's world with drones, F-35's, stealth bombers, ect -- the citizenry can't hope to ever "protect" themselves against the federal government. It's not possible, and is a fallacious argument.

Really? Checked out Afghanistan, or other places in the ME lately? Or the Philipeans Islands? All with active, and dangerous guerrilla wars ongoing. It's very possible. Not easy, mind you... But certainly possible.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Answer

I don't think Jewish people armed with pistols, shotguns and rifles would have prevented the holocaust.

And in today's world with drones, F-35's, stealth bombers, ect -- the citizenry can't hope to ever "protect" themselves against the federal government. It's not possible, and is a fallacious argument.

It's already to late for the people to be able to "defend themselves" against a tyrannical government. That argument can't be used anymore.

Consider the Warsaw Ghetto uprising A few Jews with personal arms were able to get better arms from soldiers and then were able to hold up the entire machine and force needed troops from the front lines.

Did they stop the holocaust? No. Did they save some lives and make their corner of the holocaust much, much more difficult for the Nazis? Certainly.

a reply to: seagull

Think he was talking more in terms of America based on his statement.

a reply to: seagull

I...I really don't see it.

In the places you mentioned, they are largely non-urban, 3rd world type countries with a lot of room to hide.

I know here, Johnny Wannabe Commando loves to imagine playing the guerrilla warrior in his neighborhood with his tactical vest from eBay, and skills he's learned from hours of Call of Duty.

Wait until an Abrams comes rolling down the street and entire neighborhoods are lit up by Warthogs and JDAMS. All communication is tapped anyway, so any hope for people organizing any resistance is futile.

Realistically, the only hope the people have is if the military refuses to be operationally deployed on home soil. It could happen, but your run of the mill civilian weaponry is no match for mil-spec stuff, handled by men trained and in their prime combat years.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Bull.
How much of the military WHO ACTUALLY fight would DO that?
More are out of service than in anyway.We also have experience that has been forgetten by the armed forces as their mission priorites have changed and we also have FAR superior numbers so your bombers and tanks would be sabotaged and overrun as well as their logistics chins broken, if a national campaign WAS to be attempted. Unofficially the citizens of the US represent a larger combat group than China.
NO ONE would try that as it would be the DEATH KNELL of their admninistration and possibly their very lives.
The secret service cannot protect the POTUS against a dedicated .50 cal shooter.It is perhaps aa GOOD thing that most dedicated shooters support constitutional values and don't perform such insane acts.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Good point burt can equally say that that diversion of troops led to the death of more Jews and less allies (rest of europe), possibly strengthening the nazi resolve to kill more Jews for their "insolent" behaviour. Could say it had the opposite effect of the proposed revolution. But you can equally find a situation from this that benefitted the Jews. The beauty of perspectives is why I come to ATS.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Okay, so all those vets with what planes, tanks, APCS, mortars, missiles, bombs, choppers...

It's not like the military lets you leave with parting gifts of full auto weapons and grenades.

And how many vets that are out are in combat-ready shape that aren't on a list to be recalled by the government anyway? In the event of a civil uprising, you can bet the propaganda machines will be working overtime to demonize the "patriots" as lunatic terrorists.

In fact, they'd probably have some kind of outbreak of a virus or something to peacefully round up people first, making sure to round up the potential troublemakers that have already been put onto a list from the mass surveillance they've been doing.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Wait until an Abrams comes rolling down the street and entire neighborhoods are lit up by Warthogs and JDAMS.

If we were not willing to do this overseas what makes you think this is even a remotely feasible scenario?

If the mainstream media flips its s*** when a JDAM goes through the wrong window what would they do when a bunch start falling in their backyard?

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I already have explained on many threads, we can Kill an abrams with homemade thermite on the bustle rack(Tankers havre the ABSOLUTE WORST security ) I have EASILY pentrated ARMOR areas as a scout ,even though I am old and sick I never fired my service rifle in AUTOMATIC fire as I AIM an hit more accrately.Not to mention I prefer .308 M14 to a pesky little .223 round and I wouldn't be walking for MILES to hit my enemy ,like I did in service. AND I have fired more shots,since service.


IT'S quite strange how most people think that vets NO LONGER are viable combatants after sevice.We can PICK and choose the weapons we like and Fix them up as we please as we FAR better than our sevice weapons EVER could attain UP TO nad including suppressors.WE just do no have access to fully automatic fire...until AFTER we capture it ourselves of course..

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Johnny Videogame hero is a dead man waiting in this sort of situation... On that we're agreed.

I, however, am not. ...and there are many who have more skills and experience then I do. The US is still mostly country, even wilderness, and many of the urban areas aren't all that congested. Los Angeles as an example, or Seattle, for that matter. Lots of spaces to hide and move unobserved. Technology can be spoofed with a little knowledge

If a would-be Call of Duty hero thinks that's all the training he needs? Darwin awards all all they deserve.

I'm less worried about Abrams than I am about local NG soldiery. They may know the area as well as I do...in a revolt situation, that makes a squad of competent National Guardsmen far more dangerous than an Abrams. I can go where they can't. Not so much that group of squaddies...

But this isn't likely to happen. I certainly hope it doesn't...pray it doesn't, even.

a reply to: seagull

OH yes I DO NOT ever want this to happen at all.
I just want the facts to bare out more clearly..If I fought such a war, I WOULD suicide after it was over.

a reply to: seagull

In all reality, your local guard units would be deployed halfway around the country, and units from some distant state deployed to yours. They'd mix it up to keep the troops from feeling sympathetic to the locals.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Okay, so all those vets with what planes, tanks, APCS, mortars, missiles, bombs, choppers...

It's not like the military lets you leave with parting gifts of full auto weapons and grenades.

And how many vets that are out are in combat-ready shape that aren't on a list to be recalled by the government anyway? In the event of a civil uprising, you can bet the propaganda machines will be working overtime to demonize the "patriots" as lunatic terrorists.

In fact, they'd probably have some kind of outbreak of a virus or something to peacefully round up people first, making sure to round up the potential troublemakers that have already been put onto a list from the mass surveillance they've been doing.

The difficulty is that the civilians who maintain those planes and load those bullets and make those grenades and drive the trucks that get them to the bases for the military are by and large "right wing gun nuts" types. It's hard to drop a JDAM when bubba the NRA member "loses" it in transit to the base. The very support structure the military relies upon is populated by the very people who would be the enemy in this scenario. It would be very messy.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Answer

I don't think Jewish people armed with pistols, shotguns and rifles would have prevented the holocaust.

And in today's world with drones, F-35's, stealth bombers, ect -- the citizenry can't hope to ever "protect" themselves against the federal government. It's not possible, and is a fallacious argument.

It's already to late for the people to be able to "defend themselves" against a tyrannical government. That argument can't be used anymore.

This argument is brought up constantly and it's completely incorrect.

If the Jews had been armed, they would have stood a much better chance at survival or at least making life difficult for the Nazis. See the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as an example, posted above.

If things actually came to a "citizens vs government" fight, a large majority of the nation's fighting men and women would choose family over government and would uphold their oath to defend the Constitution against enemies, foreign and domestic.

The citizen side of the fight would have drones, F-35's, and stealth bombers too. Entire states would fight against the federal government if things got that bad. I know for a fact that Texas would never side with the federal government against the citizens.

The U.S. government knows this, which is why an all-out government vs citizen war is a total fantasy. Privately owned firearms help keep it a total fantasy AND are a deterrent to any foreign power that thinks they could weaken the US military enough to invade the mainland US. If you think our military had insurgent problems in the middle east... let a foreign military land on US soil and see what happens. "...a rifle behind every blade of grass" indeed.

a reply to: Willtell

Because Merica' that's why.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Answer

I don't think Jewish people armed with pistols, shotguns and rifles would have prevented the holocaust.

And in today's world with drones, F-35's, stealth bombers, ect -- the citizenry can't hope to ever "protect" themselves against the federal government. It's not possible, and is a fallacious argument.

It's already to late for the people to be able to "defend themselves" against a tyrannical government. That argument can't be used anymore.

Geez,are you ever naive.F-35`s,drones and stealth bombers don`t appear magically out of the heavens and they don`t have bases on the moon.The bases are here among us.The military would have their hands full protecting their own and trying,trying mind you,to protect their logistical tail.

a reply to: MystikMushroom


It is readily apparent that you have never served in combat arms or even thought about it.