Saddam Died Brave

a reply to: introvert

I know that the ME is different.

His actions, or those that he sanctioned, go beyond just merely cultural/regional differences. They were beyond the pale for any region/culture.

But I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I see what you're saying, as I'm not totally blind. I just don't agree.

a reply to: seagull

I'm not blind either and perhaps we will not see eye to eye on this issue. It's a matter of perspective.

I find Saddam's actions acceptable compared to what happened after he was ousted. A foreign military invaded a sovereign nation for no reason whatsoever, millions of people died/are dying, and threw the entire region in to relative chaos that has no end in the near future.

Saddam never killed millions and it cannot be proven that he was behind the gassing of the Kurds. Both entities are violent, but the extent of which is night and day.

a reply to: introvert

It is about perspective. On that we agree.

On little else it seems. But, I can see where you are coming from. ...and respect it.

a reply to: DiggerDogg

Saddam died a piece of crap, and that's just as well, because that is how he lived. Just because everyone around you might be a murderous bastard, does not excuse becoming the most murderous, sadistic bastard possible, and making no apology for it at any time.

A good man in his position would have had more humility than he was ever able to muster, even if he had killed anyone who laughed at him having mistaken humility for weakness.

As it is though, he is dead, and regardless of the outcome for the region as a whole, he damned well deserved what he got.

That said, he should have gotten there by the efforts of the Iraqi people, and not by an illegitimate and illegal invasion of a nation which had nothing to do with the terrorist incident which lead to the war being declared in the first place. Bush and Blair would look just as good on the end of a rope, and in my opinion, Blair would look much better on the end of a rope, and even better than that if he had wet himself and wept for his life first. Dirty traitorous whoreson that he is.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: introvert

Sorry.

Don't buy it. Will never buy it.

His crimes, and those of his sons, and his political party go beyond ruthless by a fair margin.

By what standard?

If we are talking about those sorts of crimes and actions in the Western-culture countries, I would completely agree. But we are talking about the Middle East. It's a completely different situation and to combat violence and extremism, Saddam fought with violence and extremes.

You can disagree, but I believe that much more violence would have occurred if Saddam was not known for being a no BS ruler.

"He was a psychopath" is the rationale that the US government used to wrongfully invade a sovereign nation, which eventually led to the deaths of 500,000 people. Glad to see it's still being parroted even today.

A kind, benevolent daisy will not get far trying to rule a country like Iraq. Use some common sense.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: introvert

It is about perspective. On that we agree.

On little else it seems. But, I can see where you are coming from. ...and respect it.

As I respect yours. We would all be a little better off if we were more willing to disagree, but respect one another's opinion.

a reply to: DiggerDogg We should never have been there to begin with. I wouldn't call him a good guy, but we have no business messing about with people I wouldn't call a good guy. He was dragged from a small tunnel and hung, until death. I don't remember the trial.

Judging by what prisoners told me about massed graves and that they wanted us to kill him ANY credit given is worthless information.
He could have been TORTURED to death for all I care

originally posted by: seagull Not sure how they can be anything but revolting.

well yes i concur. nonetheless i'm saddened that such a denouement is considered a form of 'justice' or satisfactory closure. it's savagely primitive.

a reply to: reldra

There was a trial, but many considered it to be a mockery of justice.

The judge was changed in the middle of the trial, the defense was not allowed to submit certain witness' and evidence, and the trial was affected by politics more than evidence and truths.

In the end, I believe Saddam "deserved" his end fate, but how we came to that end leaves a lot of baggage on the shoulders of the US, Britain and the new Iraqi government.

If he was not a coward he never would have ended up on a rope. If he was at least brave he would have died full of holes clutching his AK alongside his guards.

He knew full well the jig was up and that his military was gutted like a fish but he still reused to fight. He ran and hid like cowards do. He tried to run away and let others fight his fight.

You can not tell me that he actually thought his military would make a comback. He was running to save his own skin like cowards do.

If Bush had left Saddam alone, Isis in Iraq wouldn't exist. And for sure all the Murdering Lying Sunnies would have remained on a real short leash.

Bush and his greedy cronies have opened a Pandora's box that can never be closed

Instead of wasting taxpayers money on Iraq they should have finished up in Afghanistan with Binladen first, and none of this would be happening now and innocent lives would have been saved

a reply to: DiggerDogg

Respectfully speaking...you have the right...however misguided...

He died a coward caught and in disgrace, and scared crapless (which In sure he did seconds before they yanked the rope)...to meet his judgment and maker. A tyrant, dictator, murderer, psychotic devil who walked the Earth.

Oh...and your thread here is ridiculous. It portends to us...whose side you are (were) on, and I wonder if you don't have a framed picture of him and Osama in your home?

a reply to: reldra

We should never have been there to begin with.

In retrospect, that opinion is probably right. It was the wrong war, at the wrong time.

When we went into Afghanistan, we had world opinion on our side, save for some, whose opinions could safely be ignored. That's where it should have stopped, at least then. Who knows what happens later...maybe the same thing. Maybe not. We'll never know.

Saddam was an enemy. There's little doubt of that. But he was, even possessing WMD's, no real threat without a reliable delivery system. It could have waited.

That he was a monster is without question. ...is the work-a-day Iraqi better off without Saddam in power? No. Probably not. The ME is about as unstable as it's ever been. That's not the fault of removing him. It's not having anything even vaguely resembling a plan for after. Puppet govt., many members of whom are nearly as unpopular as Saddam was, wasn't the answer.

In retrospect, which is all we've got, it was a bad idea, and bad execution of the idea.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: DiggerDogg

Respectfully speaking...you have the right...however misguided...

He died a coward caught and in disgrace, and scared crapless (which In sure he did seconds before they yanked the rope)...to meet his judgment and maker. A tyrant, dictator, murderer, psychotic devil who walked the Earth.

Oh...and your thread here is ridiculous. It portends to us...whose side you are (were) on, and I wonder if you don't have a framed picture of him and Osama in your home?

You seem to be pretty emotional where this is concerned. I imagine you are one of those guys who would prefer it if guys like me were rounded up by the government for "traitorous thinking".

I'll tell you who's side I was on. I was on the side of the U.S. like every other patriotic lemming being spoon fed lies. Now I see the wood for the trees.

There was always something rotten about all this. It goes way beyond the U.S. as a nation. It goes all the way up to the supranational entities that direct these proxy wars and resource plundering operations.

At least Saddam was up-front and frank about his actions, however ruthless they were. We get spat on, lied to, and then laughed at behind closed doors by people who have far more blood on their hands than Saddam ever did.

You could argue that he "ruined" the MidEast, torturing the heart of it into the irrepairable psychostate it is today.

Just a quick comment on the video on page 1, if you hang sausages to dry in summer you will end up with stinking festered piles of maggot infested meat. Anyone who makes sausages that are dried know you hang them in a dry cool place and winter in when its done...fact.

The past and current state of the Middle East has taught me one thing. Saddam, who I was happy to see conquered and finally hung understood something the USA still denies. You see...when you rule over bloodthirsty animals that can't control themselves, you have to become the most bloodthirsty animal of the bunch. And that is what Saddam did to successfully rule over the beasts that make up that part of the world.

We in the US sit back and compare everyone to ourselves, never considering for a second that the people over there are nothing like us. Different beliefs, different concerns, different levels of hate. For example...you can raise your child without ever spanking him and then frown at your neighbor who does spank his kid. But do you ever consider that his kid may only respond and behave with spankings? Maybe his kid isn't like your kid. Maybe different people, or groups of people need to be handled differently.

And by the way...that goes for different groups here in the US also. There are groups of people who will follow the law and when an authority tells them to calm down...they do. There are other groups that don't and only respect and behave when treated more aggressively. The liberal idea that all people are the same is idiotic. The same as saying that the temperament of all dogs are identical. For example...why are cops more violent in black cities? Maybe because black cities are more violent and therefore, the cops have to be also.

And if anyone wants to argue that or disagree...consider this. You are walking down the street during the day, in the sun with people moving to and from work. You walk in a certain, laid back way and go about your business. That night, you walk down a different street in a different part of town with people hanging out on the corner. You walk a different way with a different attitude to show that you aren't going to take any crap. Same thing...we all do it. Whether you admit it or not.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4
whatever else it might be described as, the hussein execution was a revolting spectacle.

Could not agree more a barbaric act..

a reply to: DiggerDogg

We can see now exactly what he was dealing with.

If you mean the West propped him up, used him up and when done with him, spit him out, I agree.

Sure he was corrupt, his puppet masters are the greatest corrupters.