SAS Deaths Inquest, your thoughts?

a reply to: Zaphod58
If you provide assistance it defeats the whole object of the test, replicating battlefield type conditions. You provide a safety net they won't break their psychological barriers then won't have what it takes to be SAS

a reply to: rossacus

You don't have to tell them it's there, just have a way to get assistance to them in extreme cases. Ninety nine times out of one hundred it won't be necessary, but in extreme cases you can get help when needed.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

A friends son failed selection first time round. One point of weakness gave out. He spent the next year working on that one point, using every bit of medical help and training advice he could get. Next time he got through.

The determination to be accepted will drive some people to greater efforts than can be survived. Testing determination isn't quite the same as testing endurance.

I feel harsh saying it but passing would have meant lying up somewhere cool, failing on a time penalty, then trying again a year later or when possible. That would have demonstrated the ability to do the job.

Those with too much determination have a different role to play.

It's obviously a tragedy but I 100% agree with the OP.

I was at pen y fan last weekend doing a mock SAS selection run with some alleged ex-SAS (maybe marketing spin but they certainly had superhuman endurance. It was going to be a hot day so obviously we all took several litres of water - you can skimp on food for a few hours - but run out of fluids and electrolytes and you're dead. Plus you can always hold a bottle of water to your wrist or forehead to cool down quickly if struggling - this is basic training.

From the sounds of the report it seems like the soldiers had run out of fluids and they were found off course near water.

I only have the most basic of mountaineering/running skills and if the weather changes, you change your kit. If they're unable to plan for 27C temperatures then they'd be dead in 50C warzones in the middle east in hours - which would further put the platoon at risk.

I don't blame the DS for allowing they'd them to train in what would be very mild temperatures in the areas they'd actually be fighting in.

a reply to: bastion

They should all have been allowed out on that course. No one should have failed to go home afterward though. All the BSing people in this thread have come out with, about training for the conditions that one will be fighting in is total rubbish where this is concerned.

The Brecon Beacons are in a TEMPERATE ZONE climate wise, making them unlike any of the places that the SAS is regularly called upon to visit, like the Middle East for example. The heat alone would not have killed these guys, but the humidity is a different issue.

Besides which, training is not supposed to be like combat. It is supposed to teach you to survive combat, so that you can do more of it. You cannot train a person to kill. It is either in them to do it, or it is not. You cannot train a person to strike back when struck, it is either in them to do it, or it is not. You can train a persons body to survive all manner of things but unless the crap has hit the fan, there is no excuse for loss of life in training, no matter what cap badge one might covet, or which nations military happens to issue it.

The men that died on that exercise should have lived to come back another year, or give it up and take up professional baking, or become artists, or car mechanics, or what have you. They should not have become corpses, until or unless they were fighting those who have made enemies of our nation. God knows enough military personnel in this country have had their lives spent on frivolous wars, in theatres which should never have been entered, in battles which should never have come to pass. These are indignities enough for the armed services.

Those who seek to enter into its highest echelons do have to be staggeringly capable people of course, but we do them no honour to allow them to perish before they have served for as long, and as well as they humanly could. These men were denied that chance, because the parameters of the exercise were bent and broken. The men who fell should have been evacuated within minutes of collapse, and I would put it to you that they were not, precisely because some ignorant tit with lots of scrambled egg on his shoulders thought it wouldn't be an effective exercise if any of the other lads on the course saw their mates being carted off in helicopters.

ROT!

There are things worth dying for, but these men did not die for such a cause. They died because others were stupid, had their priorities totally wrong and had no respect for the people on the course and the value of their lives.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Training should be as close to real combat as you can make it. Then when a soldier does go into combat they know what to expect. Over heard people that go through Red Flag and the NTC say that they were ready for a real battle, because those were harder.

Training is dangerous. There should be an emergency plan in place for situations like this, but it's always going to be dangerous.

Thing is selection happens on perfect weather days too, so it's not all about training, this is selection.

Training happens after selection and is as close to combat as possible in the desert, in the ice, in the jungle, in the kill house.

Selection should have been called off that day, or cut short, or changed, these boys don't quit, that's why they are there, it was the army's fault in my opinion, they still have a duty of care.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'm with you.
SAS is meant to be imhumany tough.
There are the best in the world and we can't be the best worrying about elf and safety.

Can't take the heat stay out the SAS.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: diggindirt

They could've quit.

It's selection, which means it was essentially a "try out" for SAS. They can quit any time they like, get a cup of tea and go back to their unit.

Exactly is the SAS

You should know what your getting in too.

For once I'm in agreement with you

a reply to: rossacus

I'm aware of what the SAS is. They weren't in the SAS. They were in selection. Where people fail and quit continuously until a handful are left.

TrueBrit - I see the point, but I don't agree. When one deploys to combat, one can't ring up the bad guys and say "sorry bad guys, it's a bit hot today and we don't want to play."

Suck it up and continue mission. Those that completed the ruck now know themselves a little better than they did before. Their comrades in The Regiment know their capabilities a little better.

This isn't some boot camp hike for a bunch of lads fresh from London. It's training for Tier-1 missions. SEALs routinely swim in waters that are in the 50 degree range. SEALs routinely drown, literally, sailors trying to be come SEALs. Why? Because they have to know you can take it. The men who already make up the ranks of the unit have to know you can take it and continue mission. ETA (forgot to include this) - YOU have to know you can take it.

As sad as it is that some perished, I can guarantee you not one of them wanted to be a member of "that class that didn't go for a walk because it was a bit warm." Guarantee it.

a reply to: Forensick

And you need to know how they handle the conditions. You don't take a person into an elite unit, be it SAS, SBS, SEALS or whatever and then find out of they can handle it during actual training. That's why they have things like Hell Week, and 40 hour field courses. You weed out the ones that can't handle it before they get to a Team.

a reply to: crazyewok

Law of averages says it was bound to happen sooner or later

A tragedy , sure . But if this man had found out he had a "weakness" in Syria for instance he may well have found himself the lead actor in an Isis propaganda video . Quite possibly with his fellow team members .

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Pinke

That's not what I said and you know it. You don't call of dessert training because it's too hot.

I haven't said anything you should be taking personally.

Sorry if you found the joke offensive, but I could also respond in kind by saying 'thats not what my joke was implying and you know it!' Then we could fight with flintlocks and swords or something. And frankly I have no idea what you were saying. Saying 'training how you fight' could mean just about anything. Sure I don't think you're some blood thirsty person (and clearly you do know that) but ...

Read my other post. It's nothing to do with how hot it was etc etc etc ... it's just not acceptable for one of the 'best' regiments in the world to let people die of easily preventable problems issues such as lack of water and lack of swift medical evacuation. That's piss poor planning.

a reply to: Pinke

You're right, I had other things going on and took it too personally. I shouldn't have snapped back like that.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Forensick



And you need to know how they handle the conditions. You don't take a person into an elite unit, be it SAS, SBS, SEALS or whatever and then find out of they can handle it during actual training. That's why they have things like Hell Week, and 40 hour field courses. You weed out the ones that can't handle it before they get to a Team.

Oh I agree it needs to be tough, but in my opinion, you dont let people run themselves to death just to prove they have the right stuff. With selection, you are testing the ability of the guys to push beyond the barriers and these guys did this fatality.

Now I dont know if in this case they skimped on water to be lighter therefore making it easier, if thats the case, i would hope that in those temperatures there were more PT guys watching out for the recruits to bin them before death.

When they are in and trained to know their limits and can make a decision to risk death to evade certain death then fine, you have equipped them with the tools its different, but these guys are not SAS yet.

Plenty will still fail in Jungle/Desert/Mountains/Parachute/Arctic if they cant hack the conditions or continue to try and shirk away or cant recognise the onset of heatstroke once they have been trained. They will be weeded out long before they become SAS Troopers. Selection is about mental and physical ability and they are recruits being pushed to their limits, whoever was in charge of the Fan Dance that day allowed those guys to die.

Lets say that they sent them out in summer and a freak weather bomb happened at they were out for 24 hours in subzero temperatures without any thermal, cookers and in a complete whiteout, would you still allow it to go on saying well if it were the SAS out there they would survive? Even the SAS in Bravo 2 Zero didnt survive when that happened and they were fully trained (but not equipped).

There is tough and there is suicidal - Special Forces are not suicide squads, if that were an SAS guy trained, I would imagine he would take a different course of action knowing there is no way his body can take those temperatures with the water he had and might decide the best course of action is to change direction and head for water, these boys had to go to the next trig point to reach the dreams they probably had since childhood.

I think its sad and a waste of 3 bloody hard soldiers which could have been prevented and should have.

a reply to: Forensick

That's the thing though. Did they skimp on water? Drink more than they should have? You can't hold their hand and make sure they have enough of what they need. By the time they're trying to get into the SAS they should have enough experience to know what they need and the presence of mind to carry it.

It's a very sad story. No doubt about it.

One of the things about selection is the lack of instructors on the course. There's no one there to beast the guys or jolly them along. It's all down to the men themselves to finish the course.
That's one of the reasons it's so successful.

There was a quite famous major (Mike Kealy) who died on selection in the winter, years ago. He'd been in 22 for years and often taken part in selection to keep his hand in as lots of others do from time to time.

It'll be no comfort to the families, but if you could somehow offer those guys the chance to have quit back then, I doubt they would have.

a reply to: SprocketUK

They sent a search party for kealy and found him alive after 19 hours, if the weather wasn't so bad the helicopter would have been out he would have been picked up sooner and possibly saved. Why weren't these soldiers saved?

They used to have helicopters from the territorial army on standby but that was cut in the 80's I think.

So they have always been willing to save soldiers in distress, not just let them die on selection, someone let these guys down.

The inquest will sort all this out, but my opinion is that no matter how tough selection is, unless you trip or have some medical condition or other unplanned accidental death, then preventable death in a selection (from heat or cold) is not acceptable and contingencies should be on place including more water on the course, ice and other stuff so their endurance is tested but not at the known risk of their lives.

a reply to: Forensick

I know what you're saying, my point was that there are always going to be some deaths in training. The higher up the tree you go, the more risks training carries. Selection is no different really.

Para training can be equally risky even before you get to the jump training, I remember quite a few deaths and serious injuries occurring in armoured regiments training in Canada years back.


It's unfortunate but it's a fact of life in the forces.

There's always something that could have been done, the question is, where do you draw the line?
These 3 men weren't the only ones on selection that day, some others failed, some passed...