Lithuania calls UNSC meeting for Friday re: Ukraine (OSCE will also brief).

originally posted by: intrptr

I thought it was Putin Propaganda? Now its just "Russians"?

We can use Putin if you want however since he controls the media outlets in Russia they are pretty much one in the same.

originally posted by: intrptr
Russia didn't start the storm in Ukraine, by the way.

Your right... I mean how could Russia's(Putins) invading and occupying Ukrainian Crimea while also invading east Ukraine not start the storm in Ukraine.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Your right... I mean how could Russia's(Putins) invading and occupying Ukrainian Crimea while also invading east Ukraine not start the storm in Ukraine.

You've got to give some credit to the foreign backed junta. I mean sure they were led by neo-Nazis from Russia but the separatists allowed themselves to be led down the path of violence.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Your right... I mean how could Russia's(Putins) invading and occupying Ukrainian Crimea while also invading east Ukraine not start the storm in Ukraine.

Crimea referendum came after what happened in Kiev. Russia Navy is based there in Sevastopol for centuries. How could Russia invade what they already occupy? Nice try at alternative story telling.

We can use Putin if you want however since he controls the media outlets in Russia they are pretty much one in the same.

You're the one can't figure out whether to blame Russia or Putin.

a reply to: intrptr

If Russia occupied Crimea why were they paying Ukraine for the use of the naval base? Both the Soviets and Russia acknowledged that Crimea belonged to Ukraine. Russia was allowed to keep a certain number of troops there but they were not allowed off the base with any weaponry. The little green men exceeded the number of allowed troops and they carried guns. Thus an invasion.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: MrSpad

I don't know what we here in the west go on about-- "Putin" this and that. If "Putin" (read that Russian oligarchs) wanted the Ukraine back it would have been accomplished long ago (like swatting flies). I believe the Russians are trying to intervene there just like I believed all the sat photos showing Russian artillery firing on Ukraine… people saw behind that ruse, too.

Taking of all Ukraine is not possible for both military and political reasons. The Russian military is not in a good state. The trouble its elite units have had against the rabble Ukraine fields as an army is revealing. Russia has the same problem in the Georgia invasions. Massive corruption leaves units with men who do not exist, training that happened only on the books, explosives changes sold and missing out the reactive armor, lack of com gear that allows them to talk to air support etc. An full invasion of Ukraine would require a full mobilization of Russia armed forces and even then they might not be able to pull it off. Of course such an action would likely bring the West in at some level, and even if it was only weapons and advisers things would not go well.

originally posted by: intrptr


Crimea referendum came after what happened in Kiev. Russia Navy is based there in Sevastopol for centuries. How could Russia invade what they already occupy? Nice try at alternative story telling.

The illegal referendum in Crimea occurred AFTER Russia invaded and occupied it. The forces used in Crimea were not part of the naval contingent. Secondly Russian troops are prohibited from going into the countryside of Crimea with their weapons. Third Russian forces removed insignias during their invasion.

Russian became an occupying power in Crimea the moment they invaded.

If 5k members of the US Army took a vacation to a Russian province with their equipment / weapons I doubt Russia would accept the explanation that they are just on vacation. I also doubt they would view them as anything but members of the US armed forces. The same applies to Russia in Crimea and East Ukraine.

originally posted by: intrptr
You're the one can't figure out whether to blame Russia or Putin.

Actually I have stated numerous times in numerous threads on this topic that Putin and not the Russian people are to blame. The issue is you are wanting to split hairs instead of engaging the facts. As President putin represents the Russian people. All actions he takes is done on behalf of Russia. So again, Putin, Russia.. in these threads they are one in the same. The issue is with the government and not the Russian people.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

If Russia occupied Crimea why were they paying Ukraine for the use of the naval base?

You mean they leased the property? I wonder, does the US 'lease' Pearl Harbor from the Hawaiians?

The little green men exceeded the number of allowed troops and they carried guns. Thus an invasion.

A response to the referendum, not an invasion. Crimea didn't want what happened in kiev to happen there. The real goal by the way is to cut Russian access to the Black Sea.

What do you suppose the Russian Black Sea Fleet is doing in Sevastopol?

a reply to: MrSpad

An full invasion of Ukraine would require a full mobilization of Russia armed forces and even then they might not be able to pull it off.

A thunder run up main street Kiev and they'd scatter like rats. The thugs in Kiev are the ones that don't know how to run an army, or a country for that matter. They can't pull it off even with all the backing the west can provide, because they are just street thugs in charge of a capitol building.

American taxpayers are footing the bill for all the mayhem there in Eastern Ukraine.

images

a reply to: Xcathdra

The illegal referendum in Crimea occurred AFTER Russia invaded and occupied it.

Thats crapo and you know it.

Wiki

But I get your passionate call for removal of the Russian influence in Crimea. A thorn in NATOs continuing bid for world domination.

originally posted by: intrptr

You mean they leased the property? I wonder, does the US 'lease' Pearl Harbor from the Hawaiians?

How is Hawaii comparable to Russia invading Crimea?

originally posted by: intrptr
A response to the referendum, not an invasion. Crimea didn't want what happened in kiev to happen there. The real goal by the way is to cut Russian access to the Black Sea.

No it was not in a response to a referendum. The illegal referendum occurred AFTER Russian forces invaded, not before.
To cut Russia out of the Black Sea? You do know Russia has a border with the Black Sea via the Sea of Aziov right? Secondly Putin claimed it was to protect Ethnic Russians. When did he claim it was because he would be cut off from the Black Sea?

originally posted by: intrptr
What do you suppose the Russian Black Sea Fleet is doing in Sevastopol?

Because they signed an agreement with Ukraine.

Why do you suppose that when Ukraine became Sovereign that they retained a lot of the Soviet military equipment that was present? If it never belonged to Ukraine then why did the Soviets split the military assets? Why did Russia sign a base lease with Ukraine? If Russia owned the items or the peninsula there would have been no need for Russia to sign the Budapest document.

If we wanted to bottle Russia up It would be done via Turkey.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Actually I have stated numerous times in numerous threads on this topic that Putin and not the Russian people are to blame.

Yah, I know where you stand. Regime change talk when its Putin, Russia when its military threat.

I see through you crystal clear.

Last response here. It does no good to convince war mongers of anything, exposing them will do.

a reply to: intrptr

Actually its not -
Little Green Men - 2014 Ukrainian Crimea

Little green men (Russian: зелёные человечки, Ukrainian: зелені чоловічки) is a colloquial expression referring to masked unmarked soldiers in green army uniforms wielding Russian military weapons and equipment within Ukraine. It was first used during the 2014 Crimean crisis, when said soldiers occupied and blockaded the Simferopol International Airport, most military bases in Crimea[1] and the parliament in Simferopol.

Retired Russian Admiral Igor Kasatonov has revealed that the little green men belonged to the army Spetsnaz and said that according to his information the Russian troop deployment in Crimea included six helicopter landings and three landings of IL-76 with 500 people.[2]

In Russia the unknown soldiers were later called "polite people" (Russian: вежливые люди, Ukrainian: ввічливі люди).[3][4][5][6]

From Vlads own mouth -
RT - Putin acknowledges Russian military serviceman were in Crimea

Little Green men invaded in February 2014.
Illegal referendum was held in March 2014.

The referendum came AFTER Russia invaded.

a reply to: intrptr

Putins been exposed yet he keeps going.

Secondly refute the info I post instead of resorting to making it personal. My stand on Putin has been explained in other threads and now this one. Split hairs all you want. It wont change what I have stated and my position on it.

As for war mongering - Russia invaded Ukraine, not me nor the US. the war monger would be Putin.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: intrptr

Putins been exposed yet he keeps going.

Secondly refute the info I post instead of resorting to making it personal. My stand on Putin has been explained in other threads and now this one. Split hairs all you want. It wont change what I have stated and my position on it.

As for war mongering - Russia invaded Ukraine, not me nor the US. the war monger would be Putin.

He doesn't have much else to do. Admit he lied? His house of cards falls down. International leaders don't want it either because then they are forced to act and it is lose-lose. If Russia said right now they definitively have been feeding troops and equipment into Ukraine they'd no longer be able to keep up the facade of "needing more evidence" - and what would you have people do? No one wants to get involved in a war. Russia is barely able to manage its own military, given its domestic issues and Europeans by and large have no stomach for it.

So it's between Russia admitting things and everyone loses or Russia going on and the West gets a really terrible ability to pretend things are ambiguous down there and Russian politicians retain power through nationalist rhetoric.

I'm sure there are people on here who think it'd be simple and easy, or at least that the moral obligation is more important, to exercise hard power and "punish" Russia if push came to shove but no one has any stomach for that. Particularly not with a rising China.

Let's pretend there were a large scale conventional conflict. Russia loses a statistically significant number of its equipment, military attention is focused and deployed westward, and an already pained economy chokes harder. Meanwhile, Western moral plummets further, economies suffer, and perhaps European members of the EU lose some equipment. Who wins? Actors in the region who weren't engaged.

So did this meeting end up being the same thing we've seen time and again? Everyone pointing out that Russian troops are in Ukraine and Russia denying it.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
So did this meeting end up being the same thing we've seen time and again? Everyone pointing out that Russian troops are in Ukraine and Russia denying it.

lots of issues between the west and the Russian Ambassador. To the point of the Russian ambassador stating he would not address the points raised by the US Ambassador. Direct accusations against Russia from France, the UK the US and several others.

They talked about the open secret of Russian direct intervention and yes, Russia denied it all.

a reply to: intrptr

I know thats BS because the tire burners in Kiev said that. They can't win, the "rebels" as they are called by Kieviens are the only patriots left in Ukraine.

Yes they did...but care to refute what is being reported or are you just going to call them lying tire burners with nothing to back your claim?

And please show where they said anything close to whatever you think they said?

"Rebels advance" against the Juntas positions because they are fighting for their liberty. The Thugs from Kiev are doing it for money.

And those backing the separatists aren't?

They aren't fighting for anything other than what Russia is feeding to them.

Good luck with yet another outside financed and armed puppet government. When the shooting stops they will cry to the EU and NATO overseers for more money and ammunition.

All the while Russia is financing the separatists with their puppets there, and when the fighting stops what does Russia do for the separatists...that's right nothing as they can't afford to help them, and the only reason they still get help from Russia is because Putin is in too far now and has no chose but to see it to the end.

And let's not forget the RUssian puppet that Ukraine had that turned against his own people for greed. It was never about what the people wanted, as it was about what made Yanukovych look good to his puppet master's in the Kremlin.

a reply to: intrptr

Last response here. It does no good to convince war mongers of anything, exposing them will do.

Can't get anyone to agree with you so your taking your ball and going home...well done!!!!