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For All Intents and Purposes? Nope!

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posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: windword
Maybe. I hope so. I hope that it doesn't backfire and have the opposite effect, setting trans individuals up to be judged on an unrealistic standard of appearances, and not the quality of their character.


I thought you were implying something like this before but I wasn't sure until this post. It sounds like you think her great outcome is an exception among transwomen.

She's actually not. Her money didn't make her a more "convincing" woman; it just made her look younger. The reason people think that most transwomen look like "men in dresses" is because those are the ones they notice. People don't notice the transwomen that pass by them on the street or pee in the stall next to them because a whole lot of transwomen are indistinguishable and you'd never know it. Jenner is hardly an exception as there are tons more beautiful transwomen out there than people could imagine. And they'll probably never know it since, you know... it's not exactly fun when everybody knows you are transgender.

I'm just wanting you to understand that you only see half of the transgender people out there. The rest, you never actually "see". Correcting the hormones and undoing the effects of testosterone can have dramatic results in a person and it doesn't take massive amounts of wealth to get that far. In short, her looks are hardly "unrealistic" for many transwomen.
edit on 3-6-2015 by Cuervo because: spellinz




posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 06:24 PM
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a reply to: Darth_Prime




Sorry for Semi-ranting in your rant


My rant is your rant. Make yourself at home! Have a cup of tea, or a glass of Chardonnay!



posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 06:32 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo




I'm just wanting you to understand that you only see half of the transgender people out there. The rest, you never actually "see". Correcting the hormones and undoing the effects of testosterone can have dramatic results in a person and it doesn't take massive amounts of wealth to get that far. In short, her looks are hardly "unrealistic" for many transwomen.


Right. Do you think Jenner's coming out helped any of them, hurt them or does nothing one way or the other on their behalf?

Many people are pinning their hopes on the Caitlyn's story, hoping for public pressure to force insurance companies to universally cover gender change medical issues.


Let’s be clear. Caitlyn Jenner is not your average trans person. Her lifestyle is so rarefied very few could realistically aspire to it. She has money for surgery. The majority of transgender people – who face such hideous discrimination in the job market, not to mention social and familial rejection – do not.

Many trans people are forced into sex work in order to pay for the medical aspects of gender transition, and often this puts them at risk of drug abuse and physical harm. I’ve been there myself. I live in Britain, where transgender people are entitled to surgery and psychotherapy on the NHS – but even here we have to pay for things such as laser hair removal, seen as a “cosmetic” luxury by the NHS, but essential for any trans woman cursed with thick stubble. In the US, health insurance varies from state to state, leaving some transgender Americans covered, others to fend for themselves.
www.theguardian.com...



edit on 3-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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a reply to: windword


Transgender people, on a daily basis, are trying to negotiate survival, not their hair and nails. Caitlyn Jenner is probably in a room with a hundred dresses, right now, trying to decide which one to wear when she accepts her "Arthur Ashe Courage Award"!


I guess that's the welcoming committee for you - here's to the wonderful world of women

Maybe we should conduct a search for a transgendered woman who is not famous or wealthy or girly, wearing a corduroy jumper with sensible shoes

:-)



posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 07:14 PM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis




Maybe we should conduct a search for a transgendered woman who is not famous or wealthy or girly, wearing a corduroy jumper with sensible shoes

:-)


Like her?


Or maybe her?


Or her?




I'm sure any one of them will tell you that their struggle to find themselves had very little to do with glamour.


edit on 3-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: windword


I'm sure any one of them will tell you that their struggle to find themselves had very little to do with glamour.

Women put so much pressure on each other - don't they? I don't see why it has to be a competition - as if some women have more street cred than others?

We aren't all born into the same circumstances

Mean girls and cattiness - I'm so often disappointed by our approach to the struggle and how we treat each other

There's more than one way to approach this - I think it does a disservice to women everywhere - LGBT or otherwise - when we attempt to decide who's life is more valid

Our costumes are not the point

A conservative, Christian, Republican transgendered woman? Ms. Jenner has done the world a real solid I think. Maybe there's more than one kind of judgement going on here - but, you know - whatever. Girls will be girls

:-)
edit on 6/3/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 3 2015 @ 09:38 PM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis




There's more than one way to approach this - I think it does a disservice to women everywhere - LGBT or otherwise - when we attempt to decide who's life is more valid


You miss my point. I'm not invalidating or comparing the value of Jenner's life or her life decisions. I'm questioning the validity of her message. Right now, in my opinion, it's nothing more than a message that informs us that, according to Jenner, her identity is tied to a glamorous image that's unobtainable to most individuals, LGBTQ or not. She is NOT in touch with the very individuals, their struggles and their triumphs, that she claims to represent.


Our costumes are not the point


Exactly!


Edit to add this quote that expresses my misgivings better than I have been able to.


Beyond misgendering Jenner, the AP's fixation on her "cleavage" and "va-va-voom" fashion reinforces a widespread problem with media coverage of transgender people: a voyeuristic fixation on their bodies and appearances. That kind of coverage is degrading and objectifying and treats transgender people as either spectacles or sexualized objects. It adds nothing of substance to news reports while reinforcing the idea that how transgender people look is an acceptable topic for public comment.
--Media Matters


mediamatters.org...



edit on 3-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: windword

I'll take Tea!


There is no "One Box" of Women, some are into fashion others not, some are into the "Look" others not, some are Stay at home Moms, some are not. there is no "Wrong way" to be a Women.

now i'm not a Women, so i'm speaking on the outside, but if Caitlyn wants to live her authenticate life than live it, and if it's a superficial existence than it is, but she shouldn't be considered a Spokesperson for the Queer community, especially the Trans community and expect our respect.

i Respect her for finally living her Truth, but not about acting the "New Normal" because most transgender Women/Men don't have the access to the "Normal" she is portraying. most of Us (LGBTQ and non LGBTQ) don't get paid thousands of dollars for appearances and motivational speaking. most of us (LGBTQ and non LGBTQ) don't get a reality show to tell our story.

Most of us get abused and disowned, many of us get killed, we don't get Paparazzi, we don't get celebratory tweets or told we are Heroic. we don't get to tell our story

I'm tired of the Media and Public picking our Spokespeople and Heroes for us



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:25 PM
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....an entertainment interlude, or Thread Finale...... to honor the sexualization of transsexuals.....just for fun




edit on 4-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: windword


edit on 4-6-2015 by Cuervo because: Nevermind. I don't want to spoil a friendly attempt at humor.



posted on Jun, 4 2015 @ 07:55 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

one more.............




edit on 4-6-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2015 @ 02:55 PM
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These articles are relevant...

www.huffingtonpost.com...


"I've felt frustrated and useless and overwhelmed by opinions on transgender women and how we're 'supposed' to look if we want to be taken seriously," Frasier wrote. "But not all of us adhere to those standards. Not all of us want to. Not all of us can. Some of us do, but only out of fear. Some of us do but we aren't sure why. And whether we fit those standards or not, we're beautiful, and we all deserve to feel beautiful, and be acknowledged by the world."


And

lavernecox.tumblr.com...



posted on Jun, 6 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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Interesting debate, and of course the lgbt community has never been monolithic, and also have their class, race and gender differences.
I mean, not every gay man is going to lead the lifestyle of, or look like Ricky Martin either, for example.
OK, I'm not transgender, and would never tell transgender how to feel.

However, it is the broader Kardashian industry we're talking about, and the sisters have long been included in feminist debates on "raunch culture".
Kim got her break with a supposedly leaked sex video, and the mother has been disturbingly touchy with her stepsons on some of the episodes.
They've been questioned as rolemodels in several ways (some Armenians disown the sisters, while others celebrate them), although it's unsure why they should immediately be seen as rolemodels.
They're an industry, and customers choose to partake in their fame.

They're an entertainment circus, and I never expected Caitlin to be any different.
Although, I think she was in a position where if she wanted to keep it quiet, or looked unfashionable, the critique would have been just as bad, and she would have been hounded by the press either way.
At least this way she can pay the bills (and their lifestyle also requires cash), although I wouldn't be surprised if photos surface eventually that look less glamorous, and paint her as a freak.
Let's wait and see.

At least the drag performance scene has always emulated (or parodied) the glamorous and "fabulous" woman, so while this is not the same as transgender, I'd hope there's not a tinge of misogyny and jealousy, now that a "Kardashian" character has actually become the "real thing".
I just haven't seen the same level of public debate regarding male gay figures like Elton John, or even Cher's transgender son.
It was OK to have Kim impersonators; but now let's knock Caitlyn?
OK, Caitlyn hasn't had all the experiences of being a physical women, but she's now a trans-women nevertheless.

I always can't help feeling a bit in two minds when people, but especially celebrities come out middle-aged or later.
On the one hand, I'm always glad to have another member of the lgbt community.
On the other hand, I think where were you when we were in the trenches?
Maybe you had some pressure, but you built up your career when you could have said something, and now that you're safely settled, or it has become undeniable, you storm out the closet.
But, I guess it's better late than never.

I also feel the same way sometimes about young people enjoying all the privileges others fought for, just to often be hedonists (even sometimes discriminating against older lgbt people), and throw caution to the wind regarding HIV/AIDS, because they think it's treatable and a doddle (if only they knew).

But at least Caitlyn has raised some interesting debate about divisions that have existed globally for a long time in the lgbt community.
It's still a bit early to judge - perhaps she will really use her social status to fund and support others.
The fat lady hasn't sung yet on how she will go down in history.
I wouldn't use the word "role-model" yet, but I'm also careful of breaking people down just because they are successful (there's a similar debate in the black community in South Africa, for example, with growing critique of the lavish lifestyles of the new black millionaires, while they say they didn't struggle against apartheid to be poor).
Do we want a community devoid of celebrities?

One issue I hope that can be raised relatedly is the forced gender reassignment of gay and bisexual men and women who are not transgender, particularly in Iran. www.gaystarnews.com...
Human rights should protect both transgender people and gay and bisexual people who are comfortable with their gender.




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