Computer Scientists prove that Music diversity isn't dead

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

The article isn't saying that music from yesteryear isn't being appreciated. It is just analyzing diversity as the songs are released. Trust me. I know first hand that music from yesteryear is appreciated. I'm about to see Del McCoury (Bluegrass legend) play this weekend. I've seen Tom Petty live. I'm a big fan of the Grateful Dead and the Allman Brothers, and I've seen many contemporary bands cover older songs and do them justice.

The also keep in mind that the article isolated itself to billboard top 100 hits. So if the song didn't make the top 100, they didn't account for it.

Wow, I remember Del McCoury.

Yeah it's his festival. DelFest.

Is that all they used? And from 30 second snippets? Did they at least play Name That Tune?

Lol. Yeah that's what the article says.

Some of those Billboard 100 were one hit wonders, did they factor that in?

I doubt it. The point wasn't to analyze how great the individual bands were but to analyze the proliferation of music techniques and genre influences. The one hit wonders still fell within specific genres and uses specific music techniques to make that one smash hit, even if they could only create the magic once.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

The article isn't saying that music from yesteryear isn't being appreciated. It is just analyzing diversity as the songs are released. Trust me. I know first hand that music from yesteryear is appreciated. I'm about to see Del McCoury (Bluegrass legend) play this weekend. I've seen Tom Petty live. I'm a big fan of the Grateful Dead and the Allman Brothers, and I've seen many contemporary bands cover older songs and do them justice.

The also keep in mind that the article isolated itself to billboard top 100 hits. So if the song didn't make the top 100, they didn't account for it.

Wow, I remember Del McCoury.

Yeah it's his festival. DelFest.

Is that all they used? And from 30 second snippets? Did they at least play Name That Tune?

Lol. Yeah that's what the article says.

Some of those Billboard 100 were one hit wonders, did they factor that in?

I doubt it. The point wasn't to analyze how great the individual bands were but to analyze the proliferation of music techniques and genre influences. The one hit wonders still fell within specific genres and uses specific music techniques to make that one smash hit, even if they could only create the magic once.

And who doesn't remember Too Shy?

Man, now I am going to be singing that all day.

When I was actually making short films before I got sick, I had to spend a lot of time choosing music. I had to know all the different genres and styles just to find what worked. For one short film, I spent 3 weeks listening to music I didn't even know about until I found the perfect song. And this was many hours a day trying to find the right song.

Music in films aren't accidentally put there. Soundtracks are very fundamental to movies and that is why the composer or arranger works separately from the director, but they all follow the same script.

One of the best I have seen in a trailer is this, and this is how I first heard of Florence and the Machine...



I think it could be said that filmmakers can also influence genre types, because in films there might be a song so obscure that you don't know it was even a hit in another genre unless you listened to that genre.

Maybe that is why I didn't understand the premise of the article was because in my job I had to look for music that wasn't so mainstream. I still do it now for fun, to keep up the practice. I make edited videos now just because I am currently unable to do it professionally.

People who make movie trailers really have to know music.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Oh don't get me wrong. I LIVE in the obscure music industry. Most of the bands I listen to wouldn't be played on the radio ever, unless it was some independent college station. My radio is my 80 gig ipod (which is full). I listen to music ranging from bluegrass to jam music to hard rock to rap to jazz to blues to funk and even more genres that I'm probably not thinking of. I love music. That's why I found the article so interesting. I may not like it, but pop music is still music, and certainly most of the country seems to like it.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

Oh don't get me wrong. I LIVE in the obscure music industry. Most of the bands I listen to wouldn't be played on the radio ever, unless it was some independent college station. My radio is my 80 gig ipod (which is full). I listen to music ranging from bluegrass to jam music to hard rock to rap to jazz to blues to funk and even more genres that I'm probably not thinking of. I love music. That's why I found the article so interesting. I may not like it, but pop music is still music, and certainly most of the country seems to like it.

Then you know what I mean

Just wait, the current pop music will be passe one day.

(I need to learn how to do French characters on my keyboard).

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes, I do know what you mean.

I, personally, can't wait until Dubstep is passé. Though I say that and the genre that replaces it, I'll probably like less... I just really want music creation to cycle back to being created with actual INSTRUMENTS instead of with a computer.

(I need to learn how to do French characters on my keyboard).

Use the character map Start Menu > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools, or you could just type "character map" into the search bar at the bottom of the start menu. This is for win 7. If you have win 8.1, then I'd recommend just searching for it. I don't know where it is located on 8.1.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes, I do know what you mean.

I, personally, can't wait until Dubstep is passé. Though I say that and the genre that replaces it, I'll probably like less... I just really want music creation to cycle back to being created with actual INSTRUMENTS instead of with a computer.

(I need to learn how to do French characters on my keyboard).

Use the character map Start Menu > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools, or you could just type "character map" into the search bar at the bottom of the start menu. This is for win 7. If you have win 8.1, then I'd recommend just searching for it. I don't know where it is located on 8.1.

Thank you for explaining that. I just downloaded the language pack for French in Firefox. I have Windows 7.

Dubstep, that is just evolved club music. I think Skrillex uses something like Garage Band, from what I understand.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I mean I know what Dubstep is. I have friends who are big into the rave scene. They more prefer Drum and Bass or House music though (mostly Drum and Bass). I'm just not fond of making music with a computer and have always thought that drumming is too basic of a sound to really groove to. Oh it's GREAT for dancing too, but not so much grooving.

The more instruments the better. I happen to play the bass guitar, the mandolin, and I'm thinking about starting to play a lap-steel guitar (dobro), so maybe I'm a bit biased in that regard. But I like to think that my desire to play instruments came AFTER growing fond of the music itself. That's certainly the case for the mandolin at least.

Interesting study. I never liked the 80s rock music, I must have been hearing what this program has discovered.

I've been thinking lately that popular music needs a change. Distorted guitars for example, introduced sometime in the 1950s, that sound is now about 60 years old. The tried and true instrumentation of pop bands needs a change up in my opinion. Also, pop country now-a-days is basically rock with a country flare it seems.

I was thinking that some new electric sound might do the trick, but the music producers just throw it up on the wall and sees what sticks. I'm sure their methods are primitive and rely on feed back via record sales. Mandolins are cool, kudos for that choice.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WarminIndy

I mean I know what Dubstep is. I have friends who are big into the rave scene. They more prefer Drum and Bass or House music though (mostly Drum and Bass). I'm just not fond of making music with a computer and have always thought that drumming is too basic of a sound to really groove to. Oh it's GREAT for dancing too, but not so much grooving.

The more instruments the better. I happen to play the bass guitar, the mandolin, and I'm thinking about starting to play a lap-steel guitar (dobro), so maybe I'm a bit biased in that regard. But I like to think that my desire to play instruments came AFTER growing fond of the music itself. That's certainly the case for the mandolin at least.

Very cool.

The very first music I remember was The Stanley Brothers. My grandmother from Kentucky used to have all those old records.

This is how my grandmother used to speak..just like this...



Ralph Stanley was invited to perform for Queen Elizabeth at the 400th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Some of those Billboard 100 were one hit wonders, did they factor that in?

I don't think they did, but Figure 4 shows something related to that, the first column of that chart shows the number of songs on the top 100 for each year, so we can see if there was a big variation of songs on the top or if it was dominated by a half dozen songs.



You can see that the amount of different songs on the top never reached the amount it used to have in the 1960s.

a reply to: ArMaP

Looks like it's been on the rise though, so possibly in a decade or so it'll surpass the 1960's diversely.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Some of those Billboard 100 were one hit wonders, did they factor that in?

I don't think they did, but Figure 4 shows something related to that, the first column of that chart shows the number of songs on the top 100 for each year, so we can see if there was a big variation of songs on the top or if it was dominated by a half dozen songs.

You can see that the amount of different songs on the top never reached the amount it used to have in the 1960s.

True, but back then there were still fairly independent recording studios such as Sun and Motown. Back then the artists really had to do some scrambling to get their records sold.

Remember Coal Miner's Daughter, that she was on the Zero label and had to do a lot of self-promotion. Where would Elvis be if Sam Phillips didn't just let him stroll in one day to record a Mother's Day gift?

When the huge corporations took over, they dictated music from then on. And yet back in the day it was really Arbitron ratings that raised the popularity of performers and DJs alike.

The recording studios will offer recording contracts to winners of American Idol or the Voice, what happened to all of those winners? The only ones you really hear about is Kelly Clarkson and Carrie Underwood.

Music is a business, that is why there are fewer songs on the chart above. BMI controls Billboard Top 100, because BMI is Billboard Music Inc. And that is why youtubers have trouble with WMG, because Warner Music Group doesn't want to lose revenue. They don't care about The Eagles, they just want to retain rights to revenue off the WMG label.

Even to get a song for a video, I have to make sure I can get the rights and that means that for whoever owns the rights, I have to contact the recording company and not the artist, unless that artist is independent.

Billboard controls a lot of genres. So why would the writers of the article have any other groups listed in their article? Because they only referenced BMI and not the other labels.

You don't hear of record labels anymore like Arista.

Had they compiled music from WMG or others, then perhaps the article might have shown much more diversity than just the stable of artists at BMI.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
When the huge corporations took over, they dictated music from then on.

That's why I said in a previous post that the tastes were influenced by the record companies.

Although Portugal is a small country with a small market, in the 1980s the record companies noticed that the songs that were hits in Portugal usually would go to be a hit in the UK, so they started flooding the Portuguese radio stations with all the records they could to see what was well received and what was not. The result (told once by one radio presenter on air as a kind of protest) was that the people that the radio shows stopped being capable of listening to music to choose what to play, as they received some 20 or 30 new records each week, so they had to accept what they were told to play.
That radio show host, sometimes, would stop playing a song during the show, said that the song was too bad and would never play it again. He even started an anti-top, with people voting on what were the worst songs, and some of those were also on the show's top 20.

Being a much bigger market, I'm sure that has happened many years before in the US and the UK.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: WarminIndy
When the huge corporations took over, they dictated music from then on.

That's why I said in a previous post that the tastes were influenced by the record companies.

Although Portugal is a small country with a small market, in the 1980s the record companies noticed that the songs that were hits in Portugal usually would go to be a hit in the UK, so they started flooding the Portuguese radio stations with all the records they could to see what was well received and what was not. The result (told once by one radio presenter on air as a kind of protest) was that the people that the radio shows stopped being capable of listening to music to choose what to play, as they received some 20 or 30 new records each week, so they had to accept what they were told to play.
That radio show host, sometimes, would stop playing a song during the show, said that the song was too bad and would never play it again. He even started an anti-top, with people voting on what were the worst songs, and some of those were also on the show's top 20.

Being a much bigger market, I'm sure that has happened many years before in the US and the UK.

Oh, I remember a radio station in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the DJ on air refused to play Sheena Easton's Sugar Walls even though it was a big hit. He said on air that the song was too descriptive of sex and he said that he would never play it, even though Billboard had made it a hit. I was listening to the radio when he said it.

But like you said, the really big acts from Europe like Enigma, were never played in the US. I once had a youtube account deleted by youtube because GEMA from Germany had rights to the song, but here was the catch...I had made a trailer video for Dino De Laurentiis, because he had just died, and as a film writer I was making a tribute video. I had used movie trailers that he had produced and the song in one of the Dino De Laurentiis trailers Knocking on Forbidden Doors was in the official movie trailer and I merely continued the song throughout the whole video tribute.

It was in the movie, but somehow GEMA thought that I needed to be warned because of that, so youtube deleted me.
Even though I had merely kept the song throughout, with the other movie trailers, I violated some international law...blah blah. All I did was elongate the song that already was in the original movie trailer, gave credit to Enigma and Dino De Laurentiis, GEMA didn't like it.

The researchers relied on Billboard’s Hot-100 list, the music industry’s tome that ranks the most popular singles by radio plays, online streaming and record sales. (They define pop music as any song that makes that list, regardless of genre.)

The computer program scanned each tune for two features: harmony and timbre. Harmonies are the musical chords that define a song’s melody. Timbre (pronounced tamber) describes the character of music, the quality of tone.

I few things to consider here.

We have Billboard's list as a data source for the study. Their data comes from radio plays, streaming and sales. We all know how un-diverse radio play is so streaming and sales are probably better indicators alone. But let's just go with the establishment standards and trust Billboard why don't we?

I've always traded and borrowed albums as well as recorded them on cassette, or now, into my computer. I would think that the chart that ArMaP has shared with us could be way off the real mark because of the distribution of music other than what was purchased or had gotten much air play.

I know one thing, my collections of music have always contained a spectrum of diversity that didn't reflect my purchases at the record stores or other retailers. The music scene is far more diverse than what music is popular enough for the masses to purchase.

The analysis is based only on characteristics of the music's harmony and timbre and that is only one facet of music that omits such things as rhythm or beat, lyrical content, musical origins (including geography and race), and other aspects that are really important. Also, melody defines harmony in music theory, not the other way around.

It seems to me that the data coming from Billboard, and the music business in general, is skewed from the get go. Add to this that the analysis is biased by a narrow focus on harmonics and I see more problems such as the following.

But these sounds and styles of the Reagan era flooded the music scene, pushing out genres like country and folk to the point that mid-to-late 1980s became most homogenous period in music over the last 50 years, based on the team’s computer analysis.

This statement, "sounds and styles of the Reagan era", seems to me to be indicating a possible agenda bias in their team.

Over all I'm thinking that it's a great idea for a study, but this one needs more "diversity" and less bias.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Did you read how the program analyzed the music? It is more than just how it sounds to the ear

Pfft! They site the death of dim 7th chord as an example.What about the Minor 7th. Such diverse 80's groups as Coil, Joy Division, Tangerine Dream. I could go on, but the 80s were far from the blandest. If I took a snapshot of American country music one could say that it hasn't changed in 50 years and the US is all about country music and rodeos.

Though keep in mind, this doesn't necessary mean the music was bad, there just weren't as many genres producing material worth listening to.

So not worth listening to equates to "chart busters". Sorry, if all I listened to were pop hits I'd put a gun to my head. My musical experience is my life, Its diverse and I always try to find and appreciate different styles genres and even dabble in different cultural music. They can play with as many algorithms as they like, it "don't mean squat". All it shows

From the researchers abstract

rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org...

To delimit our sample, we focused on songs that appeared in the US Billboard Hot 100 between 1960 and 2010. We obtained 30-s-long segments of 17 094 songs covering 86% of the Hot 100, with a small bias towards missing songs in the earlier years. Because our aim is to investigate the evolution of popular taste, we did not attempt to obtain a representative sample of all the songs that were released in the USA in that period of time, but just those that were most commercially successful.

So its about US exceptionalism and the $$$

I like how you use the word "prove"
"Computer Scientists prove that Music diversity isn't dead"

A more accurate thread title would go like this:
"American Computer scientists (actually 1 in life science, 1 in electronic engineering & computer science 1 Brit from a Radio station and 1 Brit in life science) postulate that Music diversity is evolving."

I'm glad I dont read abstracts to explain to me what my heart mind and gut calls great 80's music! But then again I'm glad I'm of European descent in Australia educated enough to know that the US is not just about hash browns or bagels or hot dogs when it comes to food.

a reply to: karmicecstasy

just going to say the algorithm sucks and their music is better.

1. Can you explain the differences between a GeneMerge algorithm or GeneMerge enrichment-detection algorithm? So my brain can suck it up?
2. If you bothered to read the Abstract you would see they used "just those that were commercially successful"

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I just really want music creation to cycle back to being created with actual INSTRUMENTS instead of with a computer.

But what are instruments other than a simpler machine? I get what you're saying though as we get 1000 variations of a theme using cut and paste through musical software.

With me I use electronic keyboards, but even my 1970s Farfisa organ is still a rudimentary synthesizer. Whats a real instrument? Acoustic guitar or gamelan? Even an acoustic piano evolved from the harp.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Distorted guitars for example, introduced sometime in the 1950s, that sound is now about 60 years old.

Then you probably haven't listened to Robert Fripp?

a reply to: WarminIndy

You don't hear of record labels anymore like Arista.

Arista had some great artists. Island Records are still around, they had artists such as King Crimson from the late 60s.

Island was sold to Polygram which was eventually swallowed up by Seagram in 1998 in a $10.6 Billion deal