How does the material brain initiate the material brain?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

This part of your post shows how blind you are. You said:

Oh ok... so humans have a special type of operator which makes them truly conscious but machines aren't allowed that same privilege? Come on dude, that makes absolutely no sense. Isn't the operator supposed to be the noncomputable part? Now you're saying machines can have an operator but cannot have a truly conscious operator? If the human brain isn't really responsible for consciousness then a silicon brain shouldn't be responsible, it should be the operator.

Why are machines allowed to have the same consciousness of humans? You haven't presented any evidence to support this nonsense.

Of course machines can have an operator designed by humans and built on intelligent algorithms. You seem to be under the delusion because we can built intelligent machines it means they have the same consciousness as humans. You present no evidence to support anything you're saying. You just think everyone should just stick their heads in the sand and accept your silly conclusions.

WHERE'S ANY EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS ANYTHING YOU'RE SAYING????

Human consciousness affects the very nature of reality. We're not doing that with an algorithm.

Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie."

www.prnewswire.com...

Again, a robot can have an operator that's designed by an INTELLIGENT MIND. Consciousness does not need an intelligent mind to design it. Consciousness exists it doesn't emerge from the material.

If you can show me how a machine will break symmetry between Heisenberg and Schrodinger based on an algorithm designed by an intelligent mind let's see the evidence. A machine doesn't have to have human consciousness in order to be intelligent. You seem to be drawing this equivalence for NO REASON AT ALL because you have no evidence.

Let's see your scientific evidence.

a reply to: neoholographic

"I can free recall 5 memories back to back to back. Who initiates this recall? How can the material brain tell the material brain which memory it wants the material brain to recall? "

Neural networks work like triggers that fire when they are excited above a certain weight. So a memory of fire might trigger other neurons through its synaptic connections that also trigger a response of pain etc. Even simple neural networks that we can build have enormous capabilities (facial recognition etc) but we cannot come anything close to our brain with its 1,000 trillion synaptic connections.

a reply to: neoholographic

Of course machines can have an operator designed by humans and built on intelligent algorithms. You seem to be under the delusion because we can built intelligent machines it means they have the same consciousness as humans.

You're not making any sense. You said that the human brain plays a role in integrating information but it's really the noncomputable operator which is responsible for consciousness. I'm saying if we recreated the human brain using different materials it should still be able to integrate information the way an organic brain does, and there's no reason I can see why it wouldn't be able to have an operator. I'm not talking about an algorithmic operator, I'm talking about your so called noncomputable operator. I'm saying that even if your theory is correct there's no good reason a noncomputable operator wouldn't be able to navigate an artificially created brain.

By the way there's no reason to repost the same couple of quotes a hundred times, I read them the first time. Just because Penrose or Song said something doesn't mean I will immediately believe it. You don't seem to realize that all these theories you're talking about are built on assumptions which might not necessarily be true. Almost everything in science is open to reinterpretation and criticism. You accuse me of letting my personal beliefs cloud my judgment but clearly you're the one who refuses to look at any other side of the argument. I'm researching the information you have presented and I'm not immediately discounting it, but I will try to point out the flaws and weak points that I see in your arguments.

a reply to: glend

I already tried to explain how memories can be triggered by different forms of stimulus (including our own thoughts) and apparently Neo thought it was "pure gobbledy gook". Memory recall really isn't that hard to explain when you think about it, the world is bombarding us with so much different stimuli every second, along with our own thoughts, there is always something which initiates memory recall. I would describe the human thought process as something like an infinite feedback loop. Our thoughts right now have an impact on our thoughts in the future but the stimulus we get from the external world right now also has an impact on future thoughts, and it just keeps looping through that process until we die.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

You said:

I'm saying if we recreated the human brain using different materials it should still be able to integrate information the way an organic brain does, and there's no reason I can see why it wouldn't be able to have an operator.

Who cares that you can't see why it can't be done???

You have to provide EVIDENCE that it can be done. Your opinion means nothing without a shred of evidence.

A person can say I can't see why and underground base of Aliens is on the moon. It doesn't mean anything unless they have evidence to support their claim.

So far in this thread you haven't provided any evidence. You have just stated your belief as if it's fact or that it must be the case because you believe. I have given you evidence that says why it can't happen. You don't even attempt to refute the evidence. You just say people are practising "pseudoscience" and they're "outside of the mainstream."

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Science can sometimes seem like gobbledy gook to the uninitiated but I come from programming background so know a little of how simple neural networks work. Also when meditating years back I had some images flash into my conciousness from my lower brain at barely perceptible speeds ( very fast flickers) so believe that neural networks transfers data as images that our higher brain decodes as feelings and/or urges.

Perhaps sleep and dreams is also part of the process that trains the neural networks for appropriate responses to stimuli which agrees with your statement "Our thoughts right now have an impact on our thoughts in the future"

a reply to: neoholographic

Who cares that you can't see why it can't be done???

You have to provide EVIDENCE that it can be done.

According to your own theory there's no reason it can't be done unless you're assigning some sort of special status to organic matter, which would seem totally stupid. Why couldn't conscious life evolve on another planet which is made of totally different materials? Or are you saying the theory of evolution is flawed now?

a reply to: glend

Your post proves my point. You said:

So a memory of fire might trigger other neurons through its synaptic connections that also trigger a response of pain etc.

Who initiates the memory of fire?

When you search your memory, who initiates this search?

When these things occur a set of neurons are activated that's associated with that memory. Who initiates the neurons associated with the specific memory you're recalling?

Like I said earlier, there's something called free recall. Show me the scientific evidence that shows the material brain initiates the material brain to recall a specific memory that it wants the material brain to recall? Where's the scientific evidence that the material brain initiates free recall?

For instance, there have been Scientific experiments where the subject is blind to the list there about to get and that list gives an order of events to recall. It could look like this.

1. High School Graduation
2. First job
3. Boot Camp
4. First plane ride

Who initiates the recall of these memories? If you're going to claim the material brain did it then you're going to have to show how the material brain knew to activate the neurons associated with these memories. You're going to have to show how the material brain knows the difference between these memories and out of all the information the brain processes how does it know which specific memories you wish to recall?

You can't just wish this things to be true without any evidence that it's even possible.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Of course there's a reason it can't be done because there's no evidence that it can be done.

I can say that flying elephants live underground on the moon. If we're having a fantasy debate then I don't need any evidence to support what I'm saying. You're having a fantasy debate because you haven't presented any evidence to support what you're saying.

Like I said, I have provided Scientific evidence and you have provided nothing but your fantasy about self aware androids. Get out of the fantasy world. There is something special about consciousness that can't be defined or confined to a material process.

If you have evidence that confines consciousness to the material or says consciousness can only emerge from material processes than let's see it.

a reply to: glend

Perhaps sleep and dreams is also part of the process that trains the neural networks for appropriate responses to stimuli which agrees with your statement "Our thoughts right now have an impact on our thoughts in the future"

That is definitely the reason for sleep, at least part of the reason. When we're in a deep sleep and we're not dreaming, the brain is essentially analyzing recently acquired memories to adjust the network weights. However we can dream when we are in lighter stages of sleep, which has a similar but different purpose. Dreams help us to simulate events so that if we ever do experience those events in real life we are better prepared for the emotional response and how to deal with the situation properly.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

you should start up a new thread on neural networks, I for one, would find it fascinating

a reply to: neoholographic

Who initiates the memory of fire?

When you search your memory, who initiates this search?

Why do you think that should be hard to explain? There are many good reasons one might recall a memory of a fire, the world is full of stimuli waiting to provoke our memories. If you visit a location which you visited in the past the chances are you will remember something about your last visit. The external world provided the stimulus and thus a memory was recalled.

When these things occur a set of neurons are activated that's associated with that memory. Who initiates the neurons associated with the specific memory you're recalling?

You clearly haven't researched any of the algorithms I mentioned earlier. Memories can be stored in such a way that they are linked together, and organized so that similar memories are linked together more strongly. For example Google will return a whole bunch of similar documents when given a single search term and it can do that in less than a second. Even if you provide a vague search term it will most likely find what you were looking for even though it didn't know exactly what you were looking for. It's really not that amazing when you understand how the algorithm works, the problem is you don't understand how it works.

Where's the scientific evidence that the material brain initiates free recall?

Well for a start how about experiments where the senses are cut off. For example when people are placed into an isolation tank they are deprived of external stimuli and as a result they will start to hallucinate because their brain is craving stimuli and so it will compensate with hallucinations. That is also why when it's really quiet we often hear buzzing or high pitch sounds which don't exist, or when it's dark we see fuzzy little spots or objects in the shadows.

Of course there's a reason it can't be done because there's no evidence that it can be done.

Nice job avoiding my question once again. So you are saying life cannot exist on other planets unless it's built exactly like human beings? If you say androids cannot be conscious then by extension you're saying aliens cannot be conscious, which implies there is something special about the organic human body. Stop ice skating around the point I'm making and answer me properly.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

For some reason you just don't read what people say and you just ignore any evidence that doesn't agree with what you believe. You really do live in a fantasy world with these self aware androids. You said:

Nice just totally tip toeing around my question. So you are saying life cannot exist on other planets unless it's built exactly like human beings? If you say androids cannot be conscious then by extension you're saying aliens cannot be conscious, which implies there is something special about the organic human body. Stop ice skating around the point I'm making and answer me properly.

WHAT???

This is just pure nonsense. Where did I claim that conscious life can't exist on other planets? Where did I say the human body is special and is the only thing in the universe that can experience consciousness?

Do you even understand Penrose or any of the things I have talked about?

WHY DO YOU THINK I TALK ABOUT PLANCK SCALE GEOMETRY?

WHY DO YOU THINK I TALK ABOUT SCHRODINGER AND HEISENBERG AND BREAKING SYMMETRY???

Are you serious? You don't have a clue? How can consciousness be confined to the human body if it isn't an emergent property of the material brain?

I'm ready to call Tattoo and Mr. Rourke. Have you even read anything that I have said?? WOW!

Also, you have to show me the scientific evidence that shows what stimuli is connected to free recall. How does this stimuli initiate the specific memory you're going to recall in scientific experiments. Show me the brain scans during these experiments that support what you're saying.

Please stop with the fantasies and present some actual evidence.

a reply to: neoholographic

How can consciousness be confined to the human body if it isn't an emergent property of the material brain?

Exactly! How can it be confined to the human body and why can't it also exist in other life forms with different bodies, even if those bodies are made from steel and silicon? By your own argument conscious androids should be totally possible, that's what I've been trying to point out. Yet you keep insisting that conscious androids are some sort of silly fantasy. You haven't understood the underlying point that I've been making. Debating with you really is totally pointless. If your next response isn't intelligent I don't know if I'll have the strength to continue.

a reply to: neoholographic

On just a few occasions I have been able to block all sensation from my body during meditation. What was left was something I personally call an observer, Hard to describe but the word "pure" perhaps the only word to describe it. It could create new thought but didn't have too. It was content just to watch a void of blackness for hours on end. If that was the lower brain or ones soul I cannot say for certain but it might be the creator that drives new thought (the true us). But its certain that neurons fire all the time. Perhaps its like music, the differences in tunes causes new thoughts.

Its also interesting that some have unsuccessfully tried to determine where memories reside which suggests that memory is holographic (Holonomic brain theory).

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Sadly you haven't presented any evidence. I will keep mentioning this because we're on a SCIENTIFIC THREAD not in a Fantasy Folder or in the Philosophy Forums.

You haven't provided one scientific source to back up anything that you're saying. All you have provided is long winded about about your fantasy androids and you just post while ignoring evidence and just ignoring what's being said.

You said:

Exactly! How can it be confined to the human body and why can't it also exist in other life forms with different bodies, even if those bodies are made from steel and silicon?

WHEN DID I SAY CONSCIOUSNESS CAN'T EXIST IN OTHER LIFEFORMS??

Please start quoting things you claim people say. I have had to do this with you constantly. You make a claim that someone said something but you never quote them saying this. So next time quote me instead of saying these things with no evidence just like your fantasy androids.

I said, Consciousness is non computable. Therefore a HUMAN WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DESIGN A MACHINE THAT'S CONSCIOUS.

What has this debate been about? Your silly self aware androids. Your androids will not be created in the same way that humans formed. It will be created by a HUMAN MIND. It will not be created through billions of years of evolution and natural selection, it will be made in a lab by a HUMAN MIND.

This conscious can do things that can't be confined or defined by the physical and can break symmetry between Heisenberg and Schrodinger when an observer observes their own reference frame.

Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie."

www.prnewswire.com...

If you have SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and not your fantasy about self aware androids then present us evidence that shows the human mind can recreate consciousness in your fantasy androids. How will they do this in the face of the evidence that says consciousness is non computable.

In the last post I said this:

Also, you have to show me the scientific evidence that shows what stimuli is connected to free recall. How does this stimuli initiate the specific memory you're going to recall in scientific experiments. Show me the brain scans during these experiments that support what you're saying.

DO YOU HAVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR ANYTHING???

You just ignore evidence and ignore posts and you haven't presented any evidence that supports anything you're saying. Like I said, this is the SCIENCE FORUM not the Fantasy forum. Try presenting some evidence.

It seems to me it is the ego that arises from the brain. All the data pulses in the brain and body are producing the Ego, first and foremost.

It is precisely the sensations of the body generated by emotional instensifications(through experience) which gives the ego its purpose and drive.

Most of our central nervous synapse network is "programed" if you will, by experiences through life. When an event occurs that I experience, there is an automatic process performed by the ego to judge, "good or bad?" and "want more or less?"

When it doesn't get its way it experiences suffering.

That's the material brain.

When we say we are searching for consciousness, what we mean is we are searching for awareness and the experience of becoming fully aware.

Why are humans included in the universe?

This realm has historically been left to the ancient myths and rituals, because people have always been able to figure out different ways of elevating the awareness of others.

Due to the infinitely expanding 360 degree spherical omnidirectional universal integrity, humans are of such an incorporated design as to be here experienceing the awareness of themselves and by extension the awareness inherent in the universe as well.

Because humans are not a thing that is separate from the rest of the universal program. Humans have a very important role in the big pitcure of it all. Surely that much is derived even from What the Bleep Do We Know?

Due to the fine tuned designed process, I am more than inclined to assume that the experience of humans, and even other species of creatures, are of a cruicial nature and in relation to all of the universe as a greater-than whole.

...the organism both initiates and shapes the environment...we must see the organism and environment as bound together in reciprocal specification and selection.

The Embodied Mind: Cognitive Science and Human Experience page 172-174

a reply to: neoholographic

What has this debate been about? Your silly self aware androids. Your androids will not be created in the same way that humans formed. It will be created by a HUMAN MIND. It will not be created through billions of years of evolution and natural selection, it will be made in a lab by a HUMAN MIND.

Please good sir, explain to me how evolution can create things that humans cannot create. Don't you realize we can simulate evolution on computers and evolve virtual creatures?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

How do you define simulation?

A simulation is something that represents something else — it isn't the real thing. At times you might perform a simulation as practice for real life, such as a flight simulation that's used to train pilots.

www.vocabulary.com...

So how can a simulation be conscious when by definition it's not the real thing? What is the real thing? How do you simulate the breakdown of symmetry between Schrodinger and Heisenberg when a simulated being observes their own reference frame within the simulation? How do you create the simulation observing itself going backwards and forwards in time when it observes it's own reference frame? I agree with Song, this points to another reference frame that's not bound by the brain.

Like I said, you seem to be living in a fantasy world of self aware androids without a shred of evidence. Again, I can say why can't there really be Jedi Knights living in the Andromeda Galaxy but just because I ask the question doesn't mean there's evidence of Jedi Knights living in Andromeda.

You keep saying, why can't there be these self aware androids without a shred of scientific evidence to support your silly notion of self aware androids.

You asked:

Please good sir, explain to me how evolution can create things that humans cannot create.

Again, this is just faulty thinking because as humans we're primitive in our understanding of the universe.

First, we're talking about billions of years of evolution and forces exerted on evolution that stem from the billions of years the universe has existed.

Secondly, we could be talking about billions of universes and maybe an infinite multiverse that played a role.

Third, we don't know how forces in a true or false vacuum played a role.

Fourth, There's NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that supports consciousness as an emergent property so what's the true nature of consciousness? I would say nonphysical or multi-dimensional based on current SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that I have presented in this thread and your LACK OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE speaks volumes.

So the self aware android thing is a fantasy. Could we be living in a simulation? Of course we could but the being or beings who created the simulation understood that if they wanted to simulate the "real thing" when it comes to consciousness it couldn't be bound by any physical restraints in the simulation.

So consciousness is something that can't be created in a lab, it's just something that exists.

Let's go back to yet another question you never answered.

How can the material brain know which specific memory it wants the material brain to recall?

There's been Scientific Studies on free recall where a subject comes into the study and will be given a list of things to recall.

1. High School Graduation
2. Boot Camp in Army
3. Your first job

The subject comes in and he's blind. He doesn't know what memories he needs to recall or in what order he will need to recall these memories.

When he's given the list, how does the material brain know which neuronal activity in what areas needs to occur to recall these memories on the list??

All science can tell us is what parts of the brain are active when you recall those memories just like I can tell you what part of my DVD player is active when I push play.

What Science can't tell you is how I know what activity is associated with which memory or why I feel a certain way about different memories just like my DVD player can't tell me why I'm watching Wedding Crashers instead of Slumdog Millionaire.

YOU NEED AN OPERATOR TO NAVIGATE AND OPERATE THE INFORMATION PROCESSED BY THE MATERIAL BRAIN.

a reply to: neoholographic

First, we're talking about billions of years of evolution and forces exerted on evolution that stem from the billions of years the universe has existed.

Secondly, we could be talking about billions of universes and maybe an infinite multiverse that played a role.

It doesn't matter how long it takes, it's the principle which matters here. If evolution is responsible for creating consciousness then we should be able to create consciousness by simulating evolution with fast enough computers. How fast those computers need to be is irrelevant, what matters is that it can be done in principle with enough speed and time.

What you're really saying is that consciousness existed before anything else, it must have been lurking in the shadows waiting for evolution to give it a physical body. Either that or you're saying the process of evolution is also non-computable, and it's impossible to simulate regardless of how fast your computer is or how much time you have on your hands.

Both of those options seem completely ridiculous to me personally. I just cannot accept the idea that consciousness was created through a process totally separate from the process of evolution. I also cannot accept the idea that evolution is non-computable, because I've created evolutionary algorithms myself and I've seen it work with my own eyes.

Thus I reach the only conclusion which seems rational: consciousness must have been produced by the process of evolution and the process of evolution must be computable because it can be explained by physical processes. Therefore consciousness must also be computable and there should be absolutely no reason we cannot recreate it on machines.

When he's given the list, how does the material brain know which neuronal activity in what areas needs to occur to recall these memories on the list??

Haven't I already explained this numerous times? The list acts as the stimulus, when he reads the phrase "High School Graduation" it triggers various neural pathways to fire and it allows him to recall memories related to those three words. He will look at the words on the paper and he might also repeat the phrase in his mind. That process will cause very specific neural pathways to fire which are linked to the stimulus. It's like when you meet someone you met once before, your brain will recognize their face and allow you to remember them. The more times you meet them the better you remember them, because you reinforce specific neural pathways each time you remember who they are.

The process of seeing words on a sheet of paper and then thinking those words will produce a large variety of stimulus for your brain to recall events which are related to those words. It's the same reason you can remember faces and attach names to faces. If you meet someone you've met before your brain will fire in a way very similar to the way it fired when you first met them. The more times you meet them, the more you reinforce those neural pathways and the easier it becomes for you to remember that person and information about them. It's like when you practice a sport, you will get better at it because you're reinforcing specific neural pathways by making them fire over and over again.

The phrase "High School Graduation" is actually a complicated concept referring to a very specific point in time, so you might wonder how those 3 words could trigger the exact memory they refer to. The phrase "high school" could be strongly linked to countless different memories, but the term "graduation" is going to be connected to a much smaller set of memories, but if you look at the connections which both of those have in common you're extremely likely to find a memory of highschool graduation. The exact process of how it works is highly complicated and I've simplified it quite a lot but you will understand it if you study some of the algorithms I mentioned earlier.