Large Hadron Collider peaceful research cover for advanced nuclear weapons research

The real purpose behind CERN is the harvesting of anti-protons for development of fourth generation nuclear weapons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory at Los Alamos. Anti-protons are slowed down at CERN on a smaller ring until they can be cryogenically stored in magnetic confinement bottles for transport to the United States.

European taxpayers are footing the bill for this nuclear weapons project under the guise of peaceful research. The real project is a covert joint venture by Rand Corporation and the USAF.

Andre Gsponer's Report

a reply to: sy.gunson

Interesting.. I'm going to read the report, but I would like to now how did you come about it? What was your initial source?

a reply to: doompornjunkie

great question.
i also would like to hear about the OP's source for that.

a reply to: sy.gunson

This may look as a quite unusual situation: why would the world’s richest
and most powerful country not have a large dedicated antiproton source? Part of
the answer to this is already contained in a twenty-years old report of the RAND
corporation which basically concluded that as long as US scientists would have
full access to antimatter produced at CERN “a production/accumulation facility,
such as the one at CERN, although desirable, wouldn’t in the near future have to
be built in the United States” [33, p. 43]. In this spirit, one could also add that
it could certainly be in the interest of the United States to let Europe have a few
unique advanced and costly facilities in order to motivate its researchers, and to
attract those from Eastern Europe and Russia.

However, the main reason is more probably that the production of antiprotons
is not the most difficult technological problem in the way of practical applications
of antimatter. In fact, the 1014 antiprotons per year to be produced in 2010 at the
AD facility at CERN, or at FAIR at GSI, correspond already to about 1 nanogram
per year. If presently available technology would be used to build a fully dedicated
“antimatter factory,” rather than a general purpose “research facility,” one could
easily produce more that 1 microgram of antimatter per year right now [27]. As
1 microgram is sufficient to trigger one thermonuclear weapon, such a facility will
only be a factor 365 away from the implicit goal that the US and Soviet governments
set forth in the 1940s, namely to produce enough material for making one atomic
bomb every day!
As a matter of fact, the United States and other countries are still investigating
the best technique for producing very large quantities of antimatter. One such
technique is based on the idea of creating a “quark-gluon plasma,” which is studied
in laboratories such as CERN, RHIC at BNL (the Brookhaven National Laboratory
near New York), and FAIR at GSI. Creating such a plasma is essentially trying to
reproduce in the laboratory what happened at the beginning of the universe, a tiny
fraction of a second after the big bang. At that moment there were equal amounts
of matter and antimatter in the universe, all matter and energy being in a so-called
“primordial plasma” state. If the cooling-down process of the primordial plasma
into either matter or antimatter could be controlled, one would possibly have the
most efficient method for producing antimatter on a large scale! There is therefore
no surprise that weapons-laboratory scientists are in fact much interested by this
supposedly purely “astrophysical” state of matter [35], especially since the idea
itself originated from Edward Teller and collaborators in 1973 already [36] (see
also [37]).

I have actually wondered why the US didn't have a collider of their own, and also why spend so much time and resources on their seemingly innocent goals? "and today were gonna show you how to make a black hole!".. like it's some sort of show and tell.

No doubt subatomic sciences will change everything.

So its talking about using antimatter as the detonator for very small yield nuclear weapons.

In not seeing the evidence for cern being used for this. And im failing to understand the motive, not that the military really needs one, but as far as making any difference in a war, this wouldnt give any serious advantage over more conventional weaponry or the various truly advanced weapon systems in development or use. I dont see an application that isnt already covered much cheaper.

a reply to: doompornjunkie

The US has several colliders, but the LHC is the largest in the world.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: sy.gunson

Interesting.. I'm going to read the report, but I would like to now how did you come about it? What was your initial source?

I was trying to understand the nuclear physics behind Nazi efforts in 1942 to develop LiDT boosted fission nuclear weapons in World War 2 and was searching the term Inertial Confinement. At first I was just reading Gsponer's paper for clues to Nazi research, but noticed that there was just as interesting story from this report itself.

Gsponer mentions that first they were trying to develop synthetic heavy elements for nuclear weapons of increased yield but then they developed an approach to using anti-matter weapons.

Anti-matter permits miniature nuclear weapons of low yield with no fall out but terrible lethality, like mini-neutron bombs.

originally posted by: sy.gunson

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: sy.gunson

Interesting.. I'm going to read the report, but I would like to now how did you come about it? What was your initial source?

I was trying to understand the nuclear physics behind Nazi efforts in 1942 to develop LiDT boosted fission nuclear weapons in World War 2 and was searching the term Inertial Confinement. At first I was just reading Gsponer's paper for clues to Nazi research, but noticed that there was just as interesting story from this report itself.

Gsponer mentions that first they were trying to develop synthetic heavy elements for nuclear weapons of increased yield but then they developed an approach to using anti-matter weapons.

Anti-matter permits miniature nuclear weapons of low yield with no fall out but terrible lethality, like mini-neutron bombs.

Ha I just found a new hobby. It would be cool if you shared more of your research here.

originally posted by: WP4YT
a reply to: doompornjunkie

The US has several colliders, but the LHC is the largest in the world.

You are right.. I should have been more specific.

I meant serious colliders. If i'm not mistaken the US has very small ones compared to CERN.

Can't reach anywhere near their energy levels... it's like bringing a go-cart to the Indy 500

originally posted by: pirhanna
So its talking about using antimatter as the detonator for very small yield nuclear weapons.

In not seeing the evidence for cern being used for this. And im failing to understand the motive, not that the military really needs one, but as far as making any difference in a war, this wouldnt give any serious advantage over more conventional weaponry or the various truly advanced weapon systems in development or use. I dont see an application that isnt already covered much cheaper.

The advantage of anti-matter nuclear weapons is One proton-antiproton annihilation releases 300 times more energy than a fission or fusion reaction. The resulting explosion releases lethal radiation like a neutron bomb but leaves no radioactive fall-out.

Nuclear weapons can be minaturised to the point where they could be fired by infantrymen with grenade launchers, or a small fighter plane could carry literally scores of lightweight nuclear weapons. These weapons could have yields varying from 1kt to 1 x million Kt.

Furthermore the technology to make antimatter weapons are only in the hands of current super-powers USA, Russia, China, South Korea, Japan and possibly Germany.

It anticipates that at some future point the production of highly enriched fissile materials necessary for nuclear weapons could be outlawed by international treaty. It exploits the fact that smaller nations are either blocked or hindered in testing nuclear weapons by the NPT. An exclusion in the NPT permits research to continue on sub-kiloton nuclear weapons.

Antimatter weapons by Andre Gsponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni

At CERN (the European Laboratory for Particle Physics), on the evening of the 17 to the 18 of July 1986, antimatter was captured in an electromagnetic trap for the first time in history. Due to the relatively precarious conditions of this first successful attempt, it was only possible to conserve the antiprotons for about ten minutes. This was, nevertheless, much longer than the Americans Bill Kells of Fermilab and Gerald Gabrielse of the University of Washington had hoped for. When these researchers return to CERN for another attempt, an improved apparatus will permit them to literally 'bottle' several tens or hundreds of antiprotons. Ultimately, the perfection of this technique will allow them to carry home a substance infinitely more rare and difficult to obtain than a piece of the Moon.

They would thus be able to complete, in their own laboratory, a most important experiment for the theory of the unification of the fundamental physical forces, that of comparing, with a precision greater than one part per billion, the masses of the proton and anti-proton. Some other American Scientists, this time coming from the Los Alamos military laboratory (where the atomic bomb was perfected during the Second World War), are also at work in Geneva. In a few months time, using many more resources and more sophisticated equipment, they also expect to capture and bottle antiprotons, but in much greater quantities. They will, as the group from the University of Washington, strive to divulge the difference in mass between the proton and its antiparticle. But, they will also attempt a number of complex manipulations such as, the production of antihydrogen, the injection of antiprotons into superfluid helium, the search for metastable states in ordinary matter, etc. Various crucial experiments that should, in the near future, help to determine whether or not antimatter could become a new source of nuclear energy for civilian and military applications.

For the more delicate experiments, they could certainly bring their vintage 1987 or 1988 bottles of antimatter to Los Alamos. There, up in the peaceful mountains of New Mexico, they could perfect nuclear weapons free of radioactive fall-out, beam weapons projecting thermonuclear plasma jets, gamma- or X-ray lasers, or other still more secret weapons, all triggered by antimatter.

From this hint you can see they are already contemplating plasma guns able to be used as space weapons, or as weapons in space able to be fired at targets on Earth.

originally posted by: doompornjunkie

originally posted by: sy.gunson

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: sy.gunson

Interesting.. I'm going to read the report, but I would like to now how did you come about it? What was your initial source?

I was trying to understand the nuclear physics behind Nazi efforts in 1942 to develop LiDT boosted fission nuclear weapons in World War 2 and was searching the term Inertial Confinement. At first I was just reading Gsponer's paper for clues to Nazi research, but noticed that there was just as interesting story from this report itself.
...

Ha I just found a new hobby. It would be cool if you shared more of your research here.

Sure know how to flatter me, thanks. if you're interested in Nazi efforts I have written both here on ATS and several other places online about Nazi efforts. The Germans perfected small 0.8 Kt weapons intended for the V-2 rocket and shared both V-2 and nuclear technology with Japan in 1944 according to declassified 1945 US navy intelligence files. Japan was manufacturing the V-2 rocket at Mukden, China from January 1945 and intended to use it with nuclear warheads.

The SS then developed a hybrid 5kt nuclear weapon based on coal dust infused with enriched Uranium and Tritium.

A man named Dirk Finkemeier from Espelkamp uncovered evidence from the Library of congress that the uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima was actually manufactured in Germany and captured by US forces near Goslar in April '45.

The hidden history of nuclear weapons is fascinating.

If you want to learn more about anti-matter weapons really you just need to Google what Gsponer has written.

a reply to: sy.gunson

LHC is not used to create antiprotons. This is done by the smaller Proton Synchrotron.
The cooled down antiprotons are stored in storage rings with 150m diameter.
There is FLAIR which will provide cooler protons (smaller storage ring), but it is not ready afaik.
www.flairatfair.eu...

Btw the Tevatron at Fermilab has been used to produce antiprotons all the time. No need to go to Switzerland.

a reply to: sy.gunson

A man named Dirk Finkemeier from Espelkamp uncovered evidence from the Library of congress that the uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima was actually manufactured in Germany and captured by US forces near Goslar in April '45.

Are you implying that although we were experimenting with nukes at that time, that the Germans already had them? Not unbelievable by any means.. just look at the minds behind the Manhattan project.

Like i said. found a new hobby!

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: sy.gunson

A man named Dirk Finkemeier from Espelkamp uncovered evidence from the Library of congress that the uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima was actually manufactured in Germany and captured by US forces near Goslar in April '45.

Are you implying that although we were experimenting with nukes at that time, that the Germans already had them? Not unbelievable by any means.. just look at the minds behind the Manhattan project.

Like i said. found a new hobby!

I think you need to research FAT MAN and Thin Man.

Thin Man was a failed attempt to develop a gun barrel style Plutonium weapon. It was (and always will be) defeated by the presence of Pu240 contamination, which caused pre-detonation problems.

By the time they realised in April 1945 that they could not develop a Plutonium gun barrel device, there was a panic that not enough Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU) could be produced at Oak Ridge. The official history fudges the issue of how they obtained enough HEU for the Hiroshima bomb.

In fact the Germans had an enormously efficient ultracentrifuge project way more advanced than the manhattan project. It was so advanced in fact that when they captured Espelkamp near Hannover and found an underground Uranium Enrichment plant there with a working nuclear reactor, the British clandestinely kept it in operation until 1948. Nazi scientists interned at Farm Hall including Heisenberg himself were kept at Aswelde just a short distance from Espelkamp. Britains refusal to close the Espelkamp facility led to USA expelling the UK from the Manhattan Project in 1947.

Incidentally none other than James Bond author Ian Flemming was involved in the capture of Espelkamp with his special forces unit 30AU Commando. SS Lt General Dr Hans Kammler was captured at Espelkamp along with a retinue of his personal staff plus five staff cars. Fleming used this opportunity for a daring raid deep into Germany with Kammler as his willing hostage to gather nuclear intelligence. Kammler was already authorised by Hitler to round up and arrest all the nuclear scientists to prevent capture by the Soviets and Fleming used this to his own advantage. Kammler was promised his freedom after the war for co-operation, however upon their return, Fleming drowned Kammler in a vat of water at Espelkamp where his body was later discovered by British troops about 5th May 1945. All of these events of course remain classified.

a reply to: sy.gunson
Given that the people who work at CERN are above average for intelligence and education the ONLY way that this can occur is if the thousands of people there are all part of this secret activity. Anti matter is damn huge topic for physicists so you can be guaranteed any anti matter produced will have an unbelievably high focus of attention.

Thousands of conspirators across several countries and within each country several research teams, universities etc. And not one blowing the cover.

Not a chance in hell

I strongly suspect those people behind this story have just watched a movie called "Angels & Demons". Because that storyline matches almost exactly just switch "illuminati" for "US military" and there we have it !!

originally posted by: yorkshirelad
a reply to: sy.gunson

I strongly suspect those people behind this story have just watched a movie called "Angels & Demons". Because that storyline matches almost exactly just switch "illuminati" for "US military" and there we have it !!

I actually saw Angels & Demons yesterday.
According to imdb it came out in 2009.
The .pdf referenced in the OP is dated the beginning (february) 2008.
...And added to arxiv.org in february 2006, If iam reading things right.

Just saying.

originally posted by: sy.gunson
The real purpose behind CERN is the harvesting of anti-protons for development of fourth generation nuclear weapons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory at Los Alamos.
...
Andre Gsponer's Report

From your source:

The problems are that antimatter is expensive to produce in large quantities at present, and that numerous engineering
problems have still to be solved before it can be used in practical applications.

So your own source says there are engineering problems to be solved before antimatter can be used in practical applications.

And you have no source about the harvesting anti-protons claim, or do you have one but didn't post it? So I'd say without such support this claim fits better in the skunk works forum than in the science forum.

That's not to say I don't believe anti-matter weapons might be developed someday, but a problem I see with those is, you may run a greater risk of blowing yourself up than blowing the enemy up. Antimatter can be contained, but, the containment can fail.

So we're talking about antimatter weapons like in Star Trek?

a reply to: MystikMushroom
Antimatter like in Star Trek. I don't know if they used it in weapons or not but I seem to recall a number of episodes where antimatter containment was failing and the ship was about to explode. While that may be science fiction, that seems like an entirely plausible future scenario.

Nobody would want to give anti-matter away, as it's too valuable:

Antimatter

in 1999, NASA gave a figure of $62.5 trillion per gram of antihydrogen

originally posted by: doompornjunkie

originally posted by: WP4YT
a reply to: doompornjunkie

The US has several colliders, but the LHC is the largest in the world.

You are right.. I should have been more specific.

I meant serious colliders. If i'm not mistaken the US has very small ones compared to CERN.

Can't reach anywhere near their energy levels... it's like bringing a go-cart to the Indy 500

The Tevatron was on the threshold of discovering the Higgs. The energy level just wasn't quite high enough. But it was high enough to produce positrons and antiprotons. Although maybe not in to quantities the LHC could theoretically yield.
But it seems to me that if this were indeed the underlying purpose of the LHC, they are wasting vast amounts of time and energy to do it. The path they are taking is producing terrific science, but not a great deal of anti-matter, proportionally.
Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they succeed in producing anti-hydrogen at the Tevatron? (Imagine the boost anti-tritium would give a bomb... Although they aren't quite the same thing, I know)