Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: dominicus
If you really want to comprehend my points fuller, watch these two vids:
Ted Talk on Limited Human Perception

Good vids, dominicus - thanks!

I enjoyed how they dealt with our limited perception and how we have a great history of being wrong about most everything we think we know.

This can be summarized by the understanding that we never know or can know what even a single thing is. What it actually IS. We can perceive an object in various ways, as we can also perceive our body-mind and come up with ideas of who we are - but no such perception or knowledge ever equates to knowing what anything or anyone IS.

This should be very humbling to all of us, and hopefully leave us sensitive to the vast mystery of this whole appearance, even in a state of embracing non-separate reality altogether to discover whatever reality actually is.

Thanks, I really do appreciate and am filled with joy that you understood and comprehended where I was coming from by those 2 vids. Sadly, LesMis, it seems, hasn't watched the vids and hasn't gotten the point

originally posted by: [post=19160970]dominicus[/post
Sadly, LesMis, it seems, hasn't watched the vids and hasn't gotten the point

Yes, and now I think LesMis took offense to some of the posts here regarding man's mistaken presumptions about knowledge, and created a thread In Defence of Knowledge!

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: [post=19160970]dominicus[/post
Sadly, LesMis, it seems, hasn't watched the vids and hasn't gotten the point

Yes, and now I think LesMis took offense to some of the posts here regarding man's mistaken presumptions about knowledge, and created a thread In Defence of Knowledge!

"Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears."

a reply to: dominicus

I still await your point, Dominicus.

a reply to: bb23108

Doers do. Don't'ers don't.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Oh I just thought it was very funny, your being defensive about knowledge.

Maybe you should have called this thread:

Spirituality might work if it wasn't so offensive!


Plus, that would likely have expanded the range of the consideration - it would not only cover your objections but also allow people to consider how true spirituality is offensive to all the ways we find to not love moment-to-moment, by being self-contracted and apart from the vast field of relatedness we have appeared in.

Our fear-based obsession with always being the "knower, objectifying everything, is a primary form of this separative self-contraction.

a reply to: bb23108

Oh I just thought it was very funny, your being defensive about knowledge.

Maybe you should have called this thread:

Spirituality might work if it wasn't so offensive!


Plus, that would likely have expanded the range of the consideration - it would not only cover your objections but also allow people to consider how true spirituality is offensive to all the ways we find to not love moment-to-moment, by being self-contracted and apart from the vast field of relatedness we have appeared in.

Our fear-based obsession with always being the "knower, objectifying everything, is a primary form of this separative self-contraction.

I think my argument stills stands. The vehement refusal of brute facts and sense-data in favor of obfuscation and ignorance among those who promote the spiritual suggests not only a naive and innocent stupidity, but a willful one. This is not only funny, but alarming. The fear-based obsession with avoiding reality is apparently common, given that most people on earth are religious and find comfort in obscure reason and absent evidence.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

But my dear LesMis. The brute facts are on the side of spirituality. You've been duped by debunkers. You're the willfully ignorant one. You're the one avoiding reality. Oh, the irony is delicious.





"I have always seen parapsychology as the "earthing" of the spiritual. In our experiments we explore the psychic in a very logical, rational, exoteric manner. We assign clearly demonstrable proof ratings to the different variables. In such a manner we have inadvertently confirmed many spiritual teachings, for example that one's attitude or belief about something may actually affect the occurrence of that particular matter. Faith, it used to be called, although now it is "the sheep-goat effect," was said to be able to move mountains. Jesus spoke quite extensively on the incredible effect of faith, which has now become transmuted into attitude, and the Hindus have a spiritual path centered around faith called Bhakti Yoga. Our modern terms are more applicable to our present society, but underneath the change in terminology the concept lives on.

Another example of the "earthing of a religious concept" occurs when doing a ganzfeld or other free-response experiment. The first thing the participant is taught to do is to become aware of the content of their mind. This action is what the Christians call contemplation and the Buddhists call mindfulness, and it is the first step in meditation, the first step in learning how to develop one's mind. The state of consciousness that the ganzfeld induces is to be found in quite a number of different religions as well, albeit induced in radically different methods, such as getting up and chanting at 3 a.m. the point in common with all these methods is the aim to create a state of consciousness whereby the conscious mind is stopped, thus allowing one to access material from the collective unconscious."

-Serena Roney-Dougal

👣

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I think my argument stills stands. The vehement refusal of brute facts and sense-data in favor of obfuscation and ignorance among those who promote the spiritual suggests not only a naive and innocent stupidity, but a willful one. This is not only funny, but alarming. The fear-based obsession with avoiding reality is apparently common, given that most people on earth are religious and find comfort in obscure reason and absent evidence.

As you must have noticed by now, I often agree with much you put forward. It is true that most spiritual seekers are just looking to escape the realities of this world - and various spiritual methods do appear very "tacky" to me quite often. However, this does not necessarily mean that all spirituality is looking to escape the world.

You must have also noticed that I very often mention that reality is present before us. The vast field of relatedness in which we all appear is what I emphasize as where we should practice our spirituality.

Now just because this approach does actually reveal aspects of reality that science cannot measure, certainly does not discount them. Do you really think this unfathomable universe is just a matter of materialism? To me that is an extremely naive disposition, just in the face of what you can see before you!

And to hold on to materialism to the point of certainty, again prompts me to say: I can understand someone being agnostic about matters beyond materialism, but certainly not like you are, at least as you appear online, as completely certain of your materialistic views. This rigid position just seems ridiculous to me - dare I say even stupid? Well, at least certainly naive and close-minded.

a reply to: bb23108


Definitely Naïve and close minded.

LM I really am a Native American and with all due respect you obviously have no idea as to what you are talking about.

Any thoughts?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: bb23108

Oh I just thought it was very funny, your being defensive about knowledge.

Maybe you should have called this thread:

Spirituality might work if it wasn't so offensive!


Plus, that would likely have expanded the range of the consideration - it would not only cover your objections but also allow people to consider how true spirituality is offensive to all the ways we find to not love moment-to-moment, by being self-contracted and apart from the vast field of relatedness we have appeared in.

Our fear-based obsession with always being the "knower, objectifying everything, is a primary form of this separative self-contraction.

I think my argument stills stands. The vehement refusal of brute facts and sense-data in favor of obfuscation and ignorance among those who promote the spiritual suggests not only a naive and innocent stupidity, but a willful one. This is not only funny, but alarming. The fear-based obsession with avoiding reality is apparently common, given that most people on earth are religious and find comfort in obscure reason and absent evidence.

Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research

The following is a selected list of downloadable peer-reviewed journal articles reporting studies of psychic phenomena, mostly published in the 21st century. There are also some important papers of historical interest and other resources. A comprehensive list would run into thousands of articles. Click on the title of an article to download it.

The international professional organization for scientists and scholars interested in psi phenomena is the Parapsychological Association, an elected affiliate (since 1969) of the AAAS, the largest general scientific
organization in the world.

Commonly repeated critiques about psi, such as “these phenomena are impossible,” or “there’s no valid scientific evidence,” or “the results are all due to fraud,” have been soundly rejected for many decades. Such critiques persist due to ignorance of the relevant literature and to entrenched, incorrect beliefs. Legitimate debates today no longer focus on existential questions but on development of adequate theoretical explanations, advancements in methodology, the “source” of psi, and issues about effect size heterogeneity and robustness of replication.

This page is maintained by Dean Radin. Updated April 18, 2014.

Source


This link is also available in this ATS thread,posted by neoholographic.

a reply to: Kashai

What band? I am Metis, half-white, half-Haida.

This page is maintained by Dean Radin. Updated April 18, 2014.

No confirmation bias there.

a reply to: bb23108

I do not believe in nor support any 'ism'. I believe in my body, my reason and my language, which are the only tools I have for wisdom and understanding. Call that materialism if you wish— I get charged with it often enough—but the reason I do not jump ship to your brand of thinking is because it lacks the above mentioned standards, and does not submit itself to any scrutiny. In other words, it's closed-minded. It sounds deep—and I think that is all some people require is that something sounds deep—but upon further scrutiny, it simply falls apart. How the spiritual view goes out of its way to refute "science" or "materialism" is revealing, and we find that none of this refutation is because of any sort of new data or argument, which one should be open-minded towards, but for purely political, self-interested reasons, or for the most part, because it makes you feel better about yourself.

You've mentioned many times already why you've come to this conclusion, and this is the only reason you've given me—you don't want a "feeling of separation". You don't want to be alone. Perhaps you do not want the responsibility of being alone. You keep speaking of "this body/mind", "this relentless thinking", "this obsession to know", and it becomes quite clear you are talking about your own demons, your own feelings, your own desires, your own body, completely separate from anything else, confusing your own perception, your own "fundamental awareness", with everything.

We do not feel the same way. We do not share any awareness. We are not one. But that does not mean we can use the same tools we both possess. We can work on

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Kashai

What band? I am Metis, half-white, half-Haida.

This page is maintained by Dean Radin. Updated April 18, 2014.

No confirmation bias there.

I am Taino my Mothers Maiden Name is Encarnacion.

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This Taino American Indian Web Ring was sponsored by the Taino Tribe of Jatibonicu' of Puerto Rico. In the language Jatibonicu means, "Great People of the Sacred High Waters".This web ring is a collective of cultural sites, that publish educational materials and that support the struggle of the Taino People of the Caribbean and Florida region. Historical Fact: The Tainos were the very first Native American people to receive glass beads and to greet Christopher Columbus on October 12, 1492.

Source

You would be surprised as to what is going on in Miami, Florida.

If you knew it is possible you would need adult size pampers.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
I have never tried to refute science nor the materialistic approach. Materialism has its place in most scientific disciplines, and my background is actually in science.

However, materialism falls short when it comes to really having anything to conclude about matters beyond the reaches of science. It can't deal with matters basically beyond the realities of the body, and so it should know its place in the scheme of things. It should not become everyone's religion, but unfortunately scientific-materialism has become the way of the modern world. Look at the massive destruction this perpetual materialistic consumerism, promised to one and all, has had on the natural world!

Regarding your attempt at some kind of psychoanalysis of me - it is really off. I am far from alone speaking of my personal situation.

The reality of everyone's situation is that we do arise in a vast field of relatedness, completely dependent on the external environment for our bodies very survival. We are not separate from the environment and this is an outward expression of the unity that underlies one and all.

This essence or unity has been discovered by many - it is fundamental awareness, conscious light-energy, always conserved, and prior to all conditional appearances, but not separate from anything. Those that really live on this basis, see more and more that everything is inherently connected. One can actually see that with the eyes, but it is even more obvious with the feeling heart. Then a different kind of logic unfolds, one that is full of life, love, and statistically impossible synchronicities.

However, strong mental "heady" types often have divorced themselves from feeling as the whole body, so these matters tend to elude them.

On so many threads have I spoken to you of these matters, and you simply refuse to consider them in depth. Such as the exercise we went through yesterday considering the pen, and how it cannot be known it terms of what it actually is. Or what is the actual condition of the room in reality, beyond all points-of-view?

You don't know and so you stop going any further with it, settling on some self-evident claim to assuage yourself with your belief system in being the body only, that objects are inherently separate from you, etc. This is fine for science, but not realistic for discovering much more about life and what is actually happening here.

Anyway, enough words for now from me to you about all of this, mi amigo.

What are your thoughts on NDEs (Near Death Experiences) ?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

This is a good question that has no simple answer.

First of all i think we must see that we live in a manmade reality, based on what thought has created, concepts and systems.
Religion is based on concepts, spirituality is based on concepts, our whole society is a system based on concepts, politically, religiously, economically.
The human mind has created its own reality, we are born in this reality and to us it seems quite real.
But the human mind is chaotic, divided and egocentric, full of descriptions, concepts such as unity, love, god, devil, heaven, hell, soul, reincarnation, enlightenment.
Humans are hermaphroditic in their actions because of the disorderly mind that creates opposites in reaction to what humanity is doing.
We are killing animals, so we'll protect animals, we are destroying the forrest, so we'll protect the forrest, we are suppressing people, so we'll fight for equality, we are killing eachother in wars, so we'll fight for peace, we are polluting our environment, so we'll fight against pollution.

So why do words and descriptions limit and divide us from what is? quite simply because we live in a manmade reality with a separated attitude.

We are simply not related, not with each other, not with our fellow earthlings, not with nature and therefore we have become careless and irresponsible in our ways.
Ideals are more important, that which can be achieved, power and position, success, to be rich, to be someone, it is always projected, and that is not 'what is'.
But it is the modern society, the immoral reality which humanity has created.
We gave life a direction, we have a direction in life, commercialism, our brain is commercial, we'll only act if there is something to gain.

This reality is based on the known, it is all we know, although we see the problems it creates, we do not seem to be able to see the cause which is the human mind.
Instead we'll try to change the structure of society, introduce new idea's and ideals to make the world beter, we say we must do something about it, the 'it' is the 'me', in other words, the cause tries to find a solution.

The word tree is not the tree itself, behind the word and behind the description of it is aliveness itself, the actual.
Why should we need a description while we can rejoice in the beauty of the tree itself?
Why should we need a description of how to live, how to be, how to unite, how to become.
We are simply intellectual know it all's that conform to the known, conformity, conform to what we have created.
We teach our children to conform, if not, we'll discipline them, such a dreadful use of that word.

Of course there is a purpose for words and descriptions, science which is practical.
We'll observe and examine the actual tree, not just following some description, it then is a guide to know what to look for based on previous scientific study.
Then a student is actually learning through seeing and doing without an authority which says, read this description and memorize it so you'll know and remember.

In this way it does not limit or divide us from what is, we are interacting with it and learning from it through observation.

a reply to: bb23108

It is quite simply a superficial life which leads to materialism.
One is not simply a materialist, the culture that is born out of human created civilisation is materialistic.
I fail to see how materialism has its place in scientific disciplines, is there a language barrier here?
My understanding of materialism is a 'me' full of greed, pleasure in possession, status, desire to obtain, to become, to fight for his own well being and to hell with the rest.
Science is partly based on sand, but also spiritual, i would even say it has its roots in the spiritual since it were the shamans who gained valuable knowledge which was passed from old to young, not only about herbs and the rhythm of life, but also spiritually which is preserved in mythology and even in old fairy tales.
So the wheels of energy within the great wheel of life are visible to the seer.
The tree of life is proof of that, yggdrasil and the nine worlds, alchemy.

While we live a superficial materialistic life in this modern world, in ancient times humanity must have been much more intelligent than humanity is currently.
Sadly somewhere along the way humanity became organized, seeing and understanding became believing.
This is really something to explore, why humans distrust their own senses and intuition and instead follow some doctrine with a mediator as authority.

I'm very delighted with this thread, hope it is not dead since there seems to be a disagreement.
A thread like this is an opportunity to learn for all of us, we should not agree nor disagree, if we do, the learning stops.
Much like the existence of god, one can say yes he exists or say no he does not exists, in both ways one has prevented himself from going deeper in to it.
A third option is to say, "i don't know" then we begin from that.

a reply to: artistpoet

Life after Death is Life.

a reply to: Kashai

Thanks for your short but succinct reply ... I concur with your statement.

I have had friends who have had NDEs and they are changed by their experience ... whether they believed in life after death or not ... all seemed to gain some insight from their experience ...

Reading other cases and "Separating the wheat from the chaff" ... All lose any fear of death and wish to share their story for others benefit ...

If we supposedly are just the body ... well it begs the question ... are you your hands ... your eyes ... ears ... brain ...
What is the "Spark" That gives life to not only us but all else ...

To say the Universe came about by chance is laughable ... when you study the intelligent patterns and ways of the Universe ... It takes Intelligence ... a Higher Intelligence to create a life ... We are all a part of that Intelligence

Intelligence cares for all it is and contains ... some call this Unconditional Love ... and those who experience NDEs speak of this love in terms of it being far more amazing than we can imagine.

When we die ... we go home