Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

a reply to: Willtell

It is a myth. The arguments "God exists" or "God doesn't exist" are circular. Atheism is a foolish stance, and is a slur invented by believers.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
What is a mode of awareness?

Let's keep it simple - can you say beyond any doubt that you actually experience anything or anyone directly apart from awareness?

a reply to: bb23108

Yes I can and have said so numerous times.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

The time it takes for light to travel shows that there is a relationship between perceived and perceived. Some things are simply further away than others. If it was all an image, nothing could be further away than another, and depth perception, distance, etc. would be an illusion.

I am assuming you meant "perceiver and perceived". Yes, of course there are apparently varying distances between objects, but this does not mean an image cannot still yield a sense of distance and depth.

All experience of the perceived depends on awareness whether it is an image or sensation, etc. I understand you are saying you are the body, etc., directly experiencing these objects, but your statement of being the body does not make it so. You can assume that light affects the eye, but you are not the actual eye directly experiencing the light. How would you even describe this experience given you are saying it has nothing necessarily to do with awareness?

Can you give a specific example that accounts for what I am asking?

a reply to: bb23108

Poke yourself in the eye, bb. If you are an unchanging fundamental awareness, and you are not your eyes, poke yourself in the eye, continuously if need be. Your awareness is unchanging, just watching an image completely unworried; poke your eye continuously. I'ts so easy to prove and even I will be convinced.

Or rather, to prove you are an awareness and not a body, show yourself. Take off your meat suit, make a little cameo appearance.

Describe what experience? Experience is another word for the human body—what it's done, where it's been, how it interacts, what it thinks, how it feels.

I am aware. Bodies have that ability.

How is awareness able to see an image? Does it also have awareness?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Poking myself in the eye still would do something similar to creating an image via reflected light from an object. It would create a sensation which takes awareness to experience such a sensation.

I thought I answered your question about awareness a few times in the past. Awareness is not separate from whatever arises - however, it is inherently free of what arises because it is unconditional, without form - unlike objects and bodily reactions to eye pokes, etc.

Why do you just assume you are the body? Do you figure this is some kind of self-evident truth? Do you have unequivocal proof that you are the body? If not, then why do you just assume it is true?

a reply to: bb23108

Yes, looking in the mirror is proof. Just touch yourself; at no point are you touching awareness. Smell yourself. You can hear yourself. Jump up and down. Anything is proof. There is no assumption. A body is required to make any assumption, but if it says it is a body, it is not an assumption. It appears to be correct, and can be verified.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I am also realizing that because you assume you are the body you then can say that you experience everything that is happening to the body is happening to you. So you are experiencing the blood moving through your veins, for instance. But you obviously are not aware of this as an actual moment to moment occurrence, and yet you would insist that you are experiencing that. Is this a correct understanding of your argument, LesMis?

Given your response just now (I wrote the above before your post) I see it is a correct understanding of your argument. I am also surprised that your philosophical orientation relative to the body and the world is based on the feedback you get from the body.

The body-mind is bent on its own survival and its presumptions should be deeply questioned. Just because it seems like you are the body, does not in fact make it so. To base your life on such presumptions causes you to apparently dismiss anything outside of these presumption - as you seem to demonstrate here on ATS.

The argument that awareness is unconditional, and yet is apparently unconsciously identified with the body-mind in terms of most of mankind, is a much better model for explaining experience and what is actually happening here in this vast field of relatedness.

Unconditional consciousness also is the ground for all experiences reported beyond the physical body-mind complex, even though many individuals do the same self-absorbed patterns in those realms as they do here.

Even so, one cannot just believe this - but it should be fully considered with the whole body-mind and awareness itself, because the non-dual argument that all conditions arise in self-aware consciousness does become self-evident, and as such undermines the basis for a solely materialistic philosophy.

a reply to: bb23108

Poking myself in the eye still would do something similar to creating an image via reflected light from an object. It would create a sensation which takes awareness to experience such a sensation.

You'd have to consciously keep your eyes open in order not to close them, which is an instinctive self protective action from the body.

Not fun if its a doctor drilling in one eye in order to remove a steel fragment which has penetrated the eye, i can tell you, but it is doable

The body is a part of us, you cant be without.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

You feel that you need to believe 'something' (some concept), rather than just see that seeing and hearing is just happening?

We all believe in many different things ... including you ... you believe in Tony Parsons for example ...

When I was a young child I wondered " What if there was nothing" ... meaning no Universe no life ... There is no answer to that question apart from accepting we do not know ... all we know is something as we live in something ... also there are many things we do not know or understand ...

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Itisnowagain

You feel that you need to believe 'something' (some concept), rather than just see that seeing and hearing is just happening?

We all believe in many different things ...

This existence which appears to be existing right now does not have to be believed.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

This existence which appears to be existing right now does not have to be believed.

That is true ... but I believe there is a pan of food on the stove ... if I choose to not believe it, it would burn to a crisp.
Things exist and we should believe they do exist or we would end up in a quandary ...

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Itisnowagain

This existence which appears to be existing right now does not have to be believed.

That is true ... but I believe there is a pan of food on the stove ... if I choose to not believe it, it would burn to a crisp.
Things exist and we should believe they do exist or we would end up in a quandary ...

The thought of the pan appears to exist when it appears - however the pan may not appear as thought prior to burning happening. Burning may happen or may not.
Often it is the smell which moves the body to the stove or a noise coming from the timer.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

The thought of the pan appears to exist when it appears - however the pan may not appear as thought prior to burning happening. Burning may happen or may not.

In that case ... I would have forgotten the pan was on the stove ... but burning would certainly be happening ...
I have the thought the Sun will set today ... whether I have the thought or not ... the Sun will set ... If I pay attention to the rising and setting of the Sun ... I will see a pattern occurring ... to say the Sun may or not rise is fruitless ... unless the Sun suddenly changed it's pattern of movement drastically ... however all things are constantly changing apart from nothing which remains what it is ... nothing.

To focus on nothing ... gives you nothing and I fail to see the value in that.

originally posted by: artistpoet
I have the thought the Sun will set today ... whether I have the thought or not ... the Sun will set ... If I pay attention to the rising and setting of the Sun ... I will see a pattern occurring ... to say the Sun may or not rise is fruitless ... unless the Sun suddenly changed it's pattern of movement drastically

What if you realized that the sun never rises or sets? What if you realized that it is not the sun that is moving but the earth?
Once you realize that things are not they way they first seem then the perspective will change and you will never believe the thought that tells you that the sun is moving.
The thought pattern will not change until it does. It will only change when it is seen that it was assuming something that was not true.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Often it is the smell which moves the body to the stove or a noise coming from the timer.

A smell can not move a body ... a burning smell would trigger the thought that something is burning ... I would recall that I had put food on the stove and neglected to pay it attention ... this would occur in my thoughts in a flash to speak ...

Smell does not move the body ... only the thought to move moves the body unless it is an automatic reflex

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Movement is happening is it not?

Yes things are in motion but the cause of the motion is something ...

Would we call that a force? Is not a force something?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

What if you realized that the sun never rises or sets? What if you realized that it is not the sun that is moving but the earth?

But the Sun is moving ... it orbits the Milky Way ...
And yes the Earth is rotating ... as it does the Sun appears to arise on the horizon or set ...

Once you realize that things are not they way they first seem then the perspective will change and you will never believe the thought that tells you that the sun is moving.

As I said the Sun is moving ... but true that we tend to assume things till we get a fuller picture ...

a reply to: InTheLight

Would we call that a force? Is not a force something?

Yes of course "a force" is something ... What the cause of such a force is can be many things ... But I think you are speaking of a prime cause/force ... an age old idea/question ...

a reply to: artistpoet

And yes the Earth is rotating ... as it does the Sun appears to arise on the horizon or set ...

Yes that is how it 'appears' but on further investigation it is found that appearances can be deceptive.

It might appear that there is a you separate from existence. It might appear that you were born a thing and live with other things and that you will die.
But on further investigation it might be found that there are no things - that there is only what appears to be happening.