Spirituality might work if it wasn't so stupid.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

It might appear that there is a you separate from existence. It might appear that you were born a thing and live with other things and that you will die.
But on further investigation it might be found that there are no things - that there is only what appears to be happening.

I do not see myself as separate ... yes I am an individual ... the world is full of individuals ... yet I believe we are all connected and also connected to the Universe and realities we may not yet be aware of

To say are no things seems counter intuitive to me

originally posted by: artistpoet

To say are no things seems counter intuitive to me

Is there anything other than what is actually happening presently?
Even if a thought arises about something other than what is happening - it is a thought happening.

Is what is happening a thing?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Is there anything other than what is actually happening presently?

Yes there are many things happening that we are not aware of ...

Even if a thought arises about something other than what is happening - it is a thought happening.

True ...

Is what is happening a thing?

Yes ... it is a thought which is connected to something

originally posted by: artistpoet

Yes there are many things happening that we are not aware of ...

They arise as thoughts saying 'there are many thing happening that I am not aware of'.
Awareness is the space where the appearance appears and changes.
The space that the appearance appears in never moves and is constantly clear and open for the currently arising appearance.

a reply to: artistpoet
Try looking at it this way;
You are now and now is the context - that which comes and goes in now is always different (content of now).
Now is what there is. Is now a thing?
Now just appears to change.

When now is discovered it is found to be not moving but full of movement.

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: InTheLight

Would we call that a force? Is not a force something?

Yes of course "a force" is something ... What the cause of such a force is can be many things ... But I think you are speaking of a prime cause/force ... an age old idea/question ...

Who Has Seen the Wind?
BY CHRISTINA ROSSETTI

Who has seen the wind?
Neither I nor you:
But when the leaves hang trembling,
The wind is passing through.

Who has seen the wind?
Neither you nor I:
But when the trees bow down their heads,
The wind is passing by.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

They arise as thoughts saying 'there are many thing happening that I am not aware of'.

True ... In a way but even without the thought of them ... they still exist

Awareness is the space where the appearance appears and changes.
The space that the appearance appears in never moves and is constantly clear and open for the currently arising appearance.

Awareness exists because there are things to be aware of ... and things do move ... nothing is a static state

a reply to: InTheLight

Yes ... I love that poem by Christini Rossetti ...

It implies to me that we do not see the cause/source of the life force behind all things ... only it's effect

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Try looking at it this way;
You are now and now is the context - that which comes and goes in now is always different (content of now).
Now is what there is. Is now a thing?
Now just appears to change.

When now is discovered it is found to be not moving but full of movement.

Let us talk about Reality ... now is a measurement of time ... a zero or nothing as it is static ... now could not exist if not for the past or the future ... now is merely a part of the pattern of the movement of things from past to future ... Now is a still/dead picture without the past or future ... If things stayed forever in the now then there would be no future ... no movement ... no change ... But such a Now is only a concept as it does not exist for as soon as you say now it is no more

a reply to: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: artistpoet
Nothing ... no Earth or Sun or other stars ... no love ... no movement ... without life ... not even dead ... just nothing
No soul ... no thoughts, ideas ... nothing to share ... nothing to give or receive ... just nothing

How does such a belief help or uplift others ... there is much more to Reality than just nothing

You responded

Movement is happening is it not?

Give me your honest response here...Imagine your child is dying of cancer and undergoing chemotherapy...the child asks you why they are suffering.

You would really say to them "MOVEMENT IS HAPPENING IS IT NOT"? But I guess your responses will be
"what is there to imagine?"

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

Give me your honest response here...Imagine your child is dying of cancer and undergoing chemotherapy...the child asks you why they are suffering.

But this is the issue - IMAGINATION. Absolutely anything can happen in imagination but what is really happening is just happening.

The mind is constantly making horror movies or fairy stories. The mind imagines time and space where it can be the hero and hopefully not the villain. The stories centre around what I will say or do in a situation that is not happening.
The mind imagines that there are two things making up reality - but reality is what is appearing to happen - reality is not two.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

Give me your honest response here...Imagine your child is dying of cancer and undergoing chemotherapy...the child asks you why they are suffering.

What would your honest response be to a child that asks why it is suffering?

originally posted by: artistpoet
But such a Now is only a concept as it does not exist for as soon as you say now it is no more

When is it not now? Is it not now after you stop saying now?
Now is constant but now constantly appears different.

Before and after any word arises now is present.

Now is the present that just keeps on giving - that is if it is not full of past and future beliefs. If now appears to be full of time then it is full of someone living in time (the separate me) - and that is what needs to be uncovered as false because carrying around that dead weight is rather heavy.

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Try looking at it this way;
You are now and now is the context - that which comes and goes in now is always different (content of now).
Now is what there is. Is now a thing?
Now just appears to change.

When now is discovered it is found to be not moving but full of movement.

Let us talk about Reality ...

It is impossible to talk 'about' reality - yet speaking is reality.

now is a measurement of time ... a zero or nothing as it is static ... now could not exist if not for the past or the future ...

How long is now?
Now is like the space in which thoughts appear speaking about another time. Show me the 'future', show me the 'past' - show them to me now. 'Past and future' and time are just thought constructs - concepts.
Nothing can actually appear outside now because that is where the seeing happens.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: earthling42

Regarding this poke in the eye example, I think there is a need to re-explain what I mean by awareness. Awareness is unconditional and is NOT affected by anything conditional. And so this and other statements like this about awareness, invited LesMis to propose that I poke myself in the eye.

I realize now that LesMis is again assuming the position of the body, and to him awareness is just a function of the body-mind that will react to events like the body will.

However, this presumption on his part is untrue. Yes, the body-mind reacts to all sorts of events because it is conditional and thus subject to cause-and-effect laws. However, awareness is always the same, never changes, is not affected by any such events. This is self-evident when examined deeply.

It only seems like awareness, when associated with the body-mind, reacts - but it actually does not - only the body-mind reacts. This can be noticed by awareness itself, and it is fundamental freedom when it is noticed deeply because we see this is our true nature, not the dying body-mind.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

The mind imagines that there are two things making up reality - but reality is what is appearing to happen - reality is not two.

What is "appearing to happen" is just an image that one's point-of-view is creating. If we both look at the same object, you from one angle, me from another angle, different images of what is "appearing to happen" are the case, right?

So which appearance is reality? Why would we even assume that any such image is actual reality? Reality is necessarily beyond all points of view, not limited to any (angle of) perception. The object is as it is altogether in reality, not as we might see or define it.

Seeing is not reality - it is just a perceptual function of the body-mind.

a reply to: bb23108

I have not assumed anything. I am working from evidence and valid reasoning. You on the other hand have made severe assumptions that lack any and all evidence and reason. There is nothing self-evident about your assumption besides the fact it is fallacious. You have zero evidence and only your assertions to back up your claim.

It's a simple request. Prove you are not your body.

Like you said, this presumption is the product of a species too concerned with itself that it devises theories such as this so it can imagine itself persisting beyond death. It is no different than any ghost in the machine theory.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I have not assumed anything. I am working from evidence and valid reasoning.
...
It's a simple request. Prove you are not your body.

Like you said, this presumption is the product of a species too concerned with itself that it devises theories such as this so it can imagine itself persisting beyond death. It is no different than any ghost in the machine theory.

Your "proof" is based on some kind of "self-evident" approach of looking in the mirror, etc. You have clearly assumed you are the body-mind because you keep saying you are but with no real proof. You are clearly relying on the "self-evident" argument as well.

I am certain that awareness has not ever changed - this is self-evident to me. I am most fundamentally awareness. So yes, I rely on the the "self-evident" argument, but I do admit that.

You have no more proven that you are the body, than I have proven we are most fundamentally awareness - except it is obvious to many people that when you get right down to it, we are fundamentally awareness.

Those that don't fully inspect this possibility just go with the inherited belief system that "of course we are the body!". Too bad as that promotes close-mindedness from the get-go.

Materialists always assume first and foremost that they are the body, self-evidently so. Materialism is based on this erroneous logic and goes from there. That is a useful enough approach for science, but certainly not for considerations beyond the current reach of science!

a reply to: bb23108

Then let's work with an example. How is Michael Jackson not his body?

It is quite obvious he did the moonwalk. We know what he looked like. We know he's deceased. It seems obvious to me he is his body, and we have countless images to prove that he was. Type his name in Google images.

Now what evidence do you have that he was not his body?

a reply to: bb23108

Materialists always assume first and foremost that they are the body, self-evidently so. Materialism is based on this erroneous logic and goes from there. That is a useful enough approach for science, but certainly not for considerations beyond the current reach of science!

How is it an assumption? I'd love to hear your perfect logic on this one.