If you could prove God doesn't exist...would you tell anyone?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: AinElohim

Magic show, not really, it is just an illusion if you want the science then read this.

The point.. I guess you can say an illusion is still just an illusion regardless of how many people believe it to be something else.

well you we're too quick to reveal the illusion/answer.

if you were scientific you would have took a poll... you would have likely discovered that the majority would have seen only two colors in the poor quality image.

so you are very much like Plato (whom I suggested you ignore) and the truth could not be revealed because it was only you who knew the truth.

this is called a dictatorship... your attempt at providing fact through experiment was totalitarian, hence un-scientific.

But if you still don't believe me just go out and stop people on the street and ask them what color snow is.

a reply to: Grimpachi

at any rate my friend, I do not mean to come across as hostile and we could have used your example if the conent was neutral (no one possessing a truth beyond 2 colors, what their eyes see)

it would have been much more powerful if there was some type of Revelation say of increasingly sharper or more detailed photos, which would have reflected our gaining more understanding of the subject matter (in this case the photo.)

a reply to: AinElohim

truth is subjective -- fact is objective fact is the only truth! and fact is that God/gods exist for the majority and the minorities influence and truth is subjective to only the minority.

Sorry I saw this and just had to mention how ridiculous this claim is. The nature of truth is that it by definition cannot be false. A fact is something we consider to be scientific knowledge. It used to be considered fact that the earth was flat. The truth is the earth is round.


The idea of subjective truth is so illogical its not even funny. To say truth is subjective is to say truth can contradict...which breaks the law of non-contradiction...

a reply to: AinElohim

well you we're too quick to reveal the illusion/answer.

if you were scientific you would have took a poll... you would have likely discovered that the majority would have seen only two colors in the poor quality image.

Why would I try to be scientific? It is what it is and BTW there is already a thread on ATS where they took a poll. Are you purposely missing the point which I bluntly explained to you or is it something else entirely?

so you are very much like Plato (whom I suggested you ignore) and the truth could not be revealed because it was only you who knew the truth.

Plato was pretty cool I don't mind if you saY I am like him. Also, that pic has been in the news millions probably know about it at this point. I gambled on if you had already seen it or not.

this is called a dictatorship... your attempt at providing fact through experiment was totalitarian, hence un-scientific.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean because it comes off as gobbledygook.

But if you still don't believe me just go out and stop people on the street and ask them what color snow is.

Well, if it is snow by I.P. freely's house it may not be white also I live in Florida so no dice or should I say ice.

at any rate my friend, I do not mean to come across as hostile and we could have used your example if the conent was neutral (no one possessing a truth beyond 2 colors, what their eyes see)

Content neutral??? It isn't about the number of colors(yeah I left the s off by mistake in my post to you before I thought you would have figured it to be a mistake). Links are there to be clicked I guess you didn't care about the science after all even after you asked for it.

One of the colors you claimed to see was white in the dress but it isn't. Just like something that is false can not also be true. No matter how many people think otherwise. Your comment to majority rules in reference to the truth is false.

You can claim the dress is white and whatever other color along with 7 billion people it doesn't make it true.

it would have been much more powerful if there was some type of Revelation say of increasingly sharper or more detailed photos, which would have reflected our gaining more understanding of the subject matter (in this case the photo.)

Sorry to disappoint but honestly I don't have the time to play that game. I simply thought by giving you the dress example you might see how silly your majority claim was.

If that didn't do it then, oh well I gave it a shot. Carry on.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: AinElohim

truth is subjective -- fact is objective fact is the only truth! and fact is that God/gods exist for the majority and the minorities influence and truth is subjective to only the minority.

Sorry I saw this and just had to mention how ridiculous this claim is. The nature of truth is that it by definition cannot be false. A fact is something we consider to be scientific knowledge. It used to be considered fact that the earth was flat. The truth is the earth is round.


The idea of subjective truth is so illogical its not even funny. To say truth is subjective is to say truth can contradict...which breaks the law of non-contradiction...

ridiculous? seriously...?

you honestly believe a that a person couldn't know they are doing something wrong if they were told doing a certain act is right and true or it was part of their custom?

the truth is... child marriage is fact in a large part of the world. Do those men know any other truth but the one they perceive?

truth is subjective to the observer, because you're truth is not an atheists truth.

jmatthanbrown.wordpress.com...

as beauty resides in the eye of the beholder, so too are there many faiths... and observation of nature can also be used to disprove objective truth... for why doesn't Mr Orca Killer Whale know that playing with his food, those poor sea loins, while killing them is wrong?

"truth" is subjective in a democracy and requires a majority to ratify.

If I could Prove it -

I'd tell Every one and So will Every Real Christian. - Why?

Because Real Christians arent in it for Jesus or God, Real Christian's just want to know THE TRUTH. That's why people seek answers from religion in the first place.

The bible even tells you to search out the truth like this and Not to believe every manner of religion you come across.. sorry folks but this includes modern day Christians like Catholics or Baptist alike.

Modern day Christians like Catholics? haha!

The Catholic Church is THE Church started by Jesus Christ. Argue that point all you want, but it's right there for anyone to see. Anyone with an open mind, and TRULY searches for Truth, with no preconceived notions.

One of the largest group of converts to Catholicism presently...are former Protestant ministers. They dropped their egos and actually studied their history. Any humble search for Truth in Christianity will lead someone directly into The Catholic Church.

2000 years, and still going strong., while many others swing away at piñatas blindly.

a reply to: JohnPhoenix

In a skinny moment. Your thread can basically be summed up, "Is ignorance bliss?"

Religious people, even the peaceful ones, create many problems for the non-religious with their morals and trying to push their religion onto others. It's not just the fundamentalists that cause problems with religion in this world.

originally posted by: JohnPhoenix
If I could Prove it -

I'd tell Every one and So will Every Real Christian. - Why?

Because Real Christians arent in it for Jesus or God, Real Christian's just want to know THE TRUTH. That's why people seek answers from religion in the first place.

The bible even tells you to search out the truth like this and Not to believe every manner of religion you come across.. sorry folks but this includes modern day Christians like Catholics or Baptist alike.

The Truth is... not an accident. There is beauty through order...

God does not play dice -Einstein

a reply to: Ignatian

The Catholic Church was the church started by Paul and the Roman Empire not Jesus. Jesus didn't start any churches and actually disproved of them.

originally posted by: Ignatian
Modern day Christians like Catholics? haha!

The Catholic Church is THE Church started by Jesus Christ. Argue that point all you want, but it's right there for anyone to see. Anyone with an open mind, and TRULY searches for Truth, with no preconceived notions.

Jesus Christ has left the building! The Spirit of God resides in the world, not in a Vicar.

Ever wonder why the Catholic cross is the only one to feature Jesus still nailed to it?

the Pope may not even be among those chosen for Heaven...


2 Corinthians 3:15 - 4:2

Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit
Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.

---

Simon Peter, the fisherman who walked with the Lord, was the first Pope... he was crucified upside down! This the Catholic Church would have you believe was at his request, but falls quite short of explaining why he was crucified in the first place.

Simon Peter denied Christ 3 times before the morning of Jesus' crucifixion. It was Joseph of Arimathea who took Christ's body from the cross...

read; Culdees @ Iona www.sacredconnections.co.uk...



We forgive you Simon, but can you see? ...Jesus is not on the cross anymore

a reply to: AinElohim

ridiculous? seriously...?

Yes seriously.....your view of reality is irrational.

you honestly believe a that a person couldn't know they are doing something wrong if they were told doing a certain act is right and true or it was part of their custom?

Rephrase. This isn't very clear.

the truth is... child marriage is fact in a large part of the world. Do those men know any other truth but the one they perceive?

Child marriage is a fact? I think you are trying to discuss a moral issue. Is child marriage good or bad? There is only one truth that answers this question. Regardless of what the answer is the truth can only be one or the other not both(law of excluded middle and law of non-contradiction). If it is true that child marriage is bad, then logically child marriage cant be good. Your confusing opinion with truth.

truth is subjective to the observer, because you're truth is not an atheists truth.

Again you are confusing opinion with truth. The atheist claim is the antithesis of the theistic claim. If one is true, the other must be false. The islamic claim contradicts the christian claim. So again if one is true the other must be false. You do not understand what truth is.

as beauty resides in the eye of the beholder, so too are there many faiths... and observation of nature can also be used to disprove objective truth...

The number of faiths has nothing to do with the validity of a faith's claim. The observation of nature does no such thing. Logic is how we describe the natural world. Your claims do not adhere to the laws of logic and therefore by definition are irrational. What in the hell does a whale tossing sea lions around have to do with truth?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

Yes seriously.....your view of reality is irrational.

A: imperfect human perception of it... (yes)

Q: has the riddle of (is the sky blue) been ratified yet?

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aristotlesrevenge.wordpress.com...

I enjoy the Socratic method if you don't mind... I'll start at the top.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

The true fact is nothing is the color you see.It is the matter reflecting that color(colors) so in fact the matter you see is in true reality every color but the color you see.Solid matter itself is a dilemma also because it is not even approaching being in a solid state.The average density of matter in the universe is approximately .0000000000000000001% solid mass.

Mans perception through observation of reality has been proven over and over to not be what is perceived as “real”.The brain plays multiple tricks to convince a person of a false reality.For the most part that is beneficial. Matter being perceived as having definitive “color” helps to distinguish objects and can be “enjoyable”.Seeing things right side up as opposed to what our eyes actually see (everything upside down) is a benefit for perception.

The true fact is the “God” that “believers” perceive(or the non believers don’t believe) is not true reality either.The fact is it is impossible to “know” a creator God by “belief” perception through observation(faith).Everything in the universe screams this basic true fact yet man cannot perceive it.

Believers will argue until they are non blue in the face their perception observation of a God’s existence and nonbelievers will deny the existence of a God through their perception observation yet both will be incorrect.Just as everything else in the universe true fact cannot be known by perception through observation they are “beliefs” subject to change of possibilities.This is a cornerstone fact the majority of the science community knows.

If the mystery of nonlocal entanglement (superposition) of why a particle of matter can be in two different places at the same time even when separated by the span of the universe(approximately 80 octillion miles) cannot be perceived as true fact then none will solve the greatest mystery of perceiving a true creator God.Contrary to popular belief faith is the reason why this is not possible not how it is possible.That is ample evidence of how delusional mans perception of true reality is the most delusional being the believers in God believe “believing” is knowing!

Trying to convince someone of this true fact is impossible because it is beyond mans perception to know.It isn’t like a C movie where “God” convinces a man he is God by doing some cheap parlor tricks that are meaningless.There is a very good reason a creator God does not try to prove their existence….. none could “know”…they would only believe.The point is the true revealing of God would never happen .Atheist are very close to the truth because they do not believe in a false God .However they are also incorrect because they cannot know a God does not exist because it is outside(meta) their knowledge of truth.

However the basic premise of this “revealed” knowledge about God only looks good on paper.It would seem that knowing this truth would make it a better world unfortunately it would not because of mans nature.To that effect religion even though it is not the truth serves a purpose.It constrains some people by compelling them to “act” differently than their nature that is sometimes more benificial.Some people (a lot) need to have a “rule of Law” to behave benevolently or the world would be much more chaotic than it already is.

Personally I do not want to be in the company of a religious fanatic however the alternative is worse(well.. sometimes!).At least some of them only ”think” they want to kill me instead of doing it with no compunction because I am positive if they had no religious compulsion they would.Religion is not limited to the “herd” religions either. Secular Humanism is just as religious(perceive through observation..believe through faith) however the advantage is they don’t believe in a God and the disadvantage is they don’t believe in a God.The sword cuts both ways.

Hopefully it is obvious that there is no solution man can enact.The best they can do is have hope and do the best they can to make life that is filled with suffering more bearable .A huge detriment to perceiving true reality is most people are in a form of denial of the most basic fact there is…they are going to die…..and it won’t be that long from now.Even if they lived a hundred more years it would still be a short amount of time because That’s the way “this” life works.Death is inevitable and an absolute certainty.

However in one sense it is only a perception through observation of another thing that can’t be known because when you are dead..you are DEAD!The futility of speculating what that encounters is legion.So much so man has created “religion” to cope with it.They believe in a “heaven”(or whatever they want to call it) or re-incarnation…anything to “believe” there is more to life than living then dieing.

The bottom line is man desperately wants to have “control” of their destiny even though all the evidence proves the don’t and can’t….so they perceive alternate realities.Many atheist are closer to the truth.For them it is futile to speculate about a life after death since it will always be an incorrect perception.To them it doesn’t exist at all just like the non existent God.They may be very incorrect however their perception is not deceived by a false God.

The truth is the proof of the non existence of what a person perceives as God is everywhere however people are blinded by their own observation/measurement.If there is a creator God they cannot be “known” by perception through observation (belief through faith).So in effect there is no God to those that perceive (believe) in one because it is a false perception and I am positive that is a fact they will not believe even when evidence of proof is everywhere.

a reply to: AinElohim

A: imperfect human perception of it... (yes)

Once again your perception doesn't affect truth. Your perception might limit your ability to determine truth. The truth however remains unaffected regardless of our inability to discover it.

Q: has the riddle of (is the sky blue) been ratified yet?

A: Doesn't matter if the riddle has been answered. Either the sky is blue. Or it isn't. It cannot logically be both. As if one is true the other must be false.

Q: Can truth contradict?

Looks like this thread has finally ended and it was enjoyable and enlightening to read. But let me leave you with this. And please understand, I don't think this makes me better or worse than anyone here.

If I discovered something that 100% proves that no God exists. And if this evidence when seen, would convince anyone/everyone. And I was the sole holder of this information at the moment. I envision a tribe somewhere that worships a God. They are happy, productive, peaceful and have been for hundreds of years and their belief is the cornerstone of their existence. I simply couldn't bring myself to present them with this information. To me, it serves them no benefit and could potentially destroy their way of life.

I'm not religious and I'm not righteous...and I would tell many people who are being harmed or causing harm because of their belief. But I couldn't take something that big, that important from anyone. To me...it would be like looking at my Grandmother on her deathbed and saying..."by the way, there is no God. Here is the proof" before she passes away.