Secret Rendition Sites, For US Citizens, Confirmed Inside the US.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random people down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime

What you suggest may work in a rural community. But in a city or any area with a signicant population it would be caos.

You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Bedlam

How can they trust individuals when those individuals think all law enforcement is evil?

To be fair, more and more evidence is coming out to show that the mentality of LEO's is that citizens are all criminals first and people second. The question then becomes the chicken and egg scenario.

And when we have this type of stand-off in thinking there is no going back IMO. It has to break before it's fixed.

Peace

It's unfortunate that these Authoritarian powers understand the social psyche. Just like any other major conspiracy people would rather believe it's not happening. Or when confronted with overwhelming evidence they shift the narrative.

Example.. NSA Files revealed: Knee jerk reaction .. Ed Snowden is a traitor. Who cares I'm not doing nothing wrong. Can you turn the channel to American idol please. This, even if revealed with piles of evidence will meet many similar reactions.

This maniac says it best...

originally posted by: crazyewok

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and finicial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

Hmmmm... for the second time in as many days we agree on something.

/heads outside to see if the world has ended.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

People don't change, the effect of the threat of the use of lethal force in defense of one's self regardless of physical stature negates the urge to violate property.

Otherwise, we would have to partially immobilize every big guy since he could hurt people with greater ease than someone of a smaller stature.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

a reply to: mysterioustranger

Are the ones on the boats still secret?

originally posted by: jude11
To be fair, more and more evidence is coming out to show that the mentality of LEO's is that citizens are all criminals first and people second. The question then becomes the chicken and egg scenario.

And when we have this type of stand-off in thinking there is no going back IMO. It has to break before it's fixed.

Peace

Also, to be fair, the media rarely if ever covers what law enforcement gets right. I have no issues with public scrutiny nor the media assisting the public in that endeavor by minding the peoples business.

The issue, on both sides is
* - Lack of communication
* - Lack of understanding
* - mutual respect via earning that respect.

It must be a give and take environment. People must understand how law enforcement operates and how the laws / court rulings affect the manner in which they do their job.

Law Enforcement has become the issue that the founding fathers were intent on avoiding. They did not want an armed military presence. The military should be present but not seen with its purpose of protecting the citizens from external threats.

When police agencies reach 10k-40k (Los Angelas / New York as an example) you essentially have an armed segment patrolling the the cities / people. It doesnt take much for the perception of a military style occupation / presence to be seen by citizens.

Law Enforcement and the people we serve MUST communicate so we can move beyond the us verse them mentality. If Law Enforcement breaks a law then investigate and charge them. Lumping all law enforcement in with the op article is dangerous.

Its suggests without proof that all law enforcement behaves in this manner when in reality it does not. That mindset, that all police are corrupt, creates the counter mindset from law enforcement.

If the people are going to go after all law enforcement then law enforcement has a right to be nervous and a bit standoffish. That creates the other half of us verse them.

While a bit off topic I think this article is something positive and touches on the us verse them mentality -

Shoot or don't shoot: Police scenarios prove eye-opening for civil rights leaders

It was a split-second decision.

A distressed man with a baby in tow was pacing back and forth in a manic state and shouting incoherently. The responding police officer calmly addressed the man in an attempt to calm him down and defuse the situation, but the man suddenly pulled an object from his side and lunged toward the officer. Instinctively, the officer raised his Taser and squeezed the trigger. It turned out the man was armed with a knife, but the "officer," who was actually the firebrand African-American activist known as Quanell X, acknowledged he would have fired whether the assailant had a knife, a spoon or an empty hand.

“I didn’t even see it,” said the leader of the Houston area Black Panther Party, who was taking part in a training scenario in an attempt to understand what police officers go through during high-pressure situations. “It could have been anything in his hand, and I still would have used force to stop him.

“It all happened so fast," he added. "You don’t know what they could have in their hand.”

Click link for remainder of article.

Long story short we have civil rights leaders who think the police act in the somewhat same manner as the OP. They were invited to partake in law enforcement training - shoot dont shoot scenarios - to help them understand what police face.

The end result of that encounter, imo, was extremely helpful in both directions.


@ the comment about mentality and criminals -
Do I perceive a person as a criminal when I am dealing with them? - Depends on the situation.
Do I perceive a person as a potential threat when I deal with them? - Absolutely


As for the OP I think an investigation should occur to see if it in fact occurred in the manner described. If so then the people involved should be held accountable.

As for the it needs to break to be fixed -
i somewhat agree.

Its one of the reasons in threads like this I post the statutes / court rulings that are involved. Of course people automatically assume I am defending law enforcement. In reality, those people think the system is broke yet they ignore the info I post. If they could read / research the info then they might have a better understanding of whats broke and how to fix it without mucking up everything else.

If a person doesnt understand how law enforcement operates how can they determine whats broke and how to fix it?

originally posted by: greencmp

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

An armed population are citizens.
An unarmed population are subjects.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

People don't change, the effect of the threat of the use of lethal force in defense of one's self regardless of physical stature negates the urge to violate property.

Otherwise, we would have to partially immobilize every big guy since he could hurt people with greater ease than someone of a smaller stature.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

If that were the case somalia should be the most peacefull country on earth.

Even in the USA you can see when LEO becomes ineffective due to natural disasters looters go crazy even with your armed population.

And armed citizens cant do anything with cyber or complex tax/financial crime.
They cant bust online pedo rings or root out monry laundering ect

You need a police force for that.

You idea may work for small communitys, infact itnmay be better for them.

But for citys and large population bases it will result in collapse,

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

People don't change, the effect of the threat of the use of lethal force in defense of one's self regardless of physical stature negates the urge to violate property.

Otherwise, we would have to partially immobilize every big guy since he could hurt people with greater ease than someone of a smaller stature.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

If that were the case somalia should be the most peacefull country on earth.

Even in the USA you can see when LEO becomes ineffective due to natural disasters looters go crazy even with your armed population.

And armed citizens cant do anything with cyber or complex tax/financial crime.
They cant bust online pedo rings or root out monry laundering ect

You need a police force for that.

You idea may work for small communitys, infact itnmay be better for them.

But for citys and large population bases it will result in collapse,

That is just not true, all of the evidence indicates that officially disarming the public results in a dramatic increase in violent crime. In places where there is violent crime, officially introducing concealed carry dramatically reduces violent crime.

The reason I take great pains to stress that it be concealed carry and publicly announced is that the effect can be enjoyed regardless of the actual possession of a firearm.

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

People don't change, the effect of the threat of the use of lethal force in defense of one's self regardless of physical stature negates the urge to violate property.

Otherwise, we would have to partially immobilize every big guy since he could hurt people with greater ease than someone of a smaller stature.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

If that were the case somalia should be the most peacefull country on earth.

Even in the USA you can see when LEO becomes ineffective due to natural disasters looters go crazy even with your armed population.

And armed citizens cant do anything with cyber or complex tax/financial crime.
They cant bust online pedo rings or root out monry laundering ect

You need a police force for that.

You idea may work for small communitys, infact itnmay be better for them.

But for citys and large population bases it will result in collapse,

That is just not true, all of the evidence indicates that officially disarming the public results in a dramatic increase in violent crime. In places where there is violent crime, officially introducing concealed carry dramatically reduces violent crime.

The reason I take great pains to stress that it be concealed carry and publicly announced is that the effect can be enjoyed regardless of the actual possession of a firearm.

Now now i never said anything about disarmng anyone.

Im just adressing the attitude of getting ride of all police.


I see no reason why a armed population and competent proffesional police can not co exist.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

There's an easy way to accomplish that... stop committing crimes.

Umm, you goto these sites before you're pronounced guilty or even charged. They send you there to extract a confession to something you may or may not have done. Stop committing crimes? That's a joke. You can wind up here while completely innocent and by the time they let you out you'll have plead guilty to something.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

While I agree that certain elements of law enforcement are out of control, what alternative would you propose for controlling crime? I mean, if you eliminate law enforcement you have anarchy. Certainly you don't believe that all members of our society would effectively police themselves. I doubt the honor system would work here in America. Or anywhere else for that matter.

An armed and vigilant populace.

This aint 1776 any more.

You cant have your adverage joe gunning random peoole down in the streets cause they thought someone was commiting a crime.

Not to mention the complexities of cyber and financial crime


You need police. Just a balanced proffesional police force.

People don't change, the effect of the threat of the use of lethal force in defense of one's self regardless of physical stature negates the urge to violate property.

Otherwise, we would have to partially immobilize every big guy since he could hurt people with greater ease than someone of a smaller stature.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

-Robert A. Heinlein

If that were the case somalia should be the most peacefull country on earth.

Even in the USA you can see when LEO becomes ineffective due to natural disasters looters go crazy even with your armed population.

And armed citizens cant do anything with cyber or complex tax/financial crime.
They cant bust online pedo rings or root out monry laundering ect

You need a police force for that.

You idea may work for small communitys, infact itnmay be better for them.

But for citys and large population bases it will result in collapse,

That is just not true, all of the evidence indicates that officially disarming the public results in a dramatic increase in violent crime. In places where there is violent crime, officially introducing concealed carry dramatically reduces violent crime.

The reason I take great pains to stress that it be concealed carry and publicly announced is that the effect can be enjoyed regardless of the actual possession of a firearm.

Now now i never said anything about disarmng anyone.

Im just adressing the attitude of getting ride of all police.


I see no reason why a armed population and competent proffesional police can not co exist.

I don't disagree at all but, police are correspondingly unnecessary as the population becomes armed and responsible for their own defense.

We now have obviously corrupt law enforcement (not to mention the corrupt laws themselves) which has unionized against civil authority and the very citizens which they are supposed to defend.

A quote from a panel member Chuck Wexler (police rep) from 'President's Task Force on Policing' yesterday :

"management gets the union it deserves, if you don't treat the members well, they become more militant" -Chuck Wexler

He is talking about public sector police unions becoming more militant against their management (aka civilian authority and civilians).

a reply to: nwtrucker

This absolutely goes on... if you start rattling too many cages... making too much sense... gathering too large of a following what better way to entirely defuse someone than to have them declared "legally insane" at which point they become a social pariah and everyone distances themselves from these individuals and effectively stomps out the proverbial fires they were starting in people's minds...

a reply to: mister.old.school

Here's a good rule of thumb. If you find yourself asking whether or not our keepers are REALLY crooked enough to do something crazy, illegal, or outlandishly oppressive, the answer is "yes, of course". Wonder no more!

Take away the police, now this thread is advocating taking away the guns from people too (what a surprise that agenda popped up).

A free Nikes and iphones looter spree with all the religious nutjobs and gangbangers transformed into mini warlords. Seen this movie before.

Not going to happen.

originally posted by: jude11
And to think many of us were called crazy, tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts when we called this a few yrs ago.

Peace

thx you .. !

couldn't have said it better !!!!

a reply to: TinfoilTP

I will certainly agree that I wouldn't want you as a neighbor.

You can't defend yourself and think everyone is from a Mad Max movie.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: mister.old.school

Defund departments. Pull the plug before it's too late.

There's an easy way to accomplish that... stop committing crimes.

Bone75...

Don't be a Bonehead75.

I know you've got to be smarter than come up with a reply like you did. Even on the surface, that's an uber-ignorant comment.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: TinfoilTP

I will certainly agree that I wouldn't want you as a neighbor.

You can't defend yourself and think everyone is from a Mad Max movie.

Sure I can, just turn on the news anytime there is a riot or natural disaster and watch the free for all. Anarchy has a way of turning every person into an animal.