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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Anaana
Perhaps that relates to earlier migration models, but with the Toda the closest Genetic comparison is with Greek Cypriots who would be a relatively isolated group that were part of the earliest Neolithic expansion into the Eastern Meditteranean so with the Toda it is not simply the case there is similarity between early Anatolian religious motifs and patterns but a close Genetic relationship.
According to Insertions/Deletions Polymorphism in Tribal Populations of Southern India and their possible Evolutionary Implications, Human Biology. Vol 75. No. 6 December 2003 by Vishwanathan, H., et al., the Toda & Kota have shared genes which separate them from the other Nilgiri Hill Tribes and share their closest affinity to the Greek Cypriots.
In/Del Polymorphisms in Indian Tribal Populations / 885 clear clustering of these populations into groups of two in such close geographi¬cal proximity attest to the sensitivity of the demographic and genetic approaches in unraveling human history. The genetic relationships between the present study populations and the other Indian tribal populations show that the study groups stand apart genetically, while the Irulas and Kurumbas have a remote genetic relationship with the tribes in other parts of India (Figure 3). This observation could indicate a common an¬estry of Irulas and Kurumbas with other Indian tribal populations, an observa¬
tion that is in good agreement with Labie et al. (1989), who postulated a unicentric origin of the tribal populations of India on the basis of their p-globin haplotypes. In the NJ tree, the other three groups were characterized with long branches, consistent with genetic drift occurring in these populations. Further, the relationship with the global populations using Alu insertion markers, which is shown in the NJ tree in Figure 4, is consistent with that reported by Majumder et al. (1999), which states that the Indian populations are genetically in between the Caucasoids and Mongoloids. The centroid analysis (Figure 5) also shows that there has been a considerable amount of gene flow between the set of populations under consideration. In spite of considerable gene flow as inferred from the centroid analysis, the extent of gene differentiation among south Indian populations continues to be very high. Since this analysis does not permit timing of the period during which gene flow might have occurred between these south Indian populations, it is difficult to offer a clear interpretation of this finding. A probable explanation is that gene flow oc¬curred prior to the subdivision of these south Indian populations into distinct endogamous units. Further, it was found that all the populations except Todas showed considerably higher levels of heterozygosity than that predicted by the Harpending-Ward (Harpending and Ward 1982) gene flow model. If this pattern of high het¬erozygosities were simply due to higher levels of gene flow, then one would have expected that south Indian populations would be genetically less differentiated. However, it was found that the coefficient of gene differentiation among south In¬dian populations is higher than that among populations inhabiting all other re¬gions of the world, except Africa (Stoneking et al. 1997; Majumder et al. 1999; Watkins et al. 2001). Therefore, it is reasonable to speculate that population bot¬tlenecks and genetic drift have been important factors in generating high genetic differentiation in these populations. Since the joint observation of higher-than-predicted heterozygosities and a high level of genetic differentiation have earlier been accepted as hallmarks of population expansion (Stoneking et al. 1997; Batzer et al. 1996; Majumder et al. 1999), the possibility of an early demographic expansion of modem humans within south India cannot be ruled out.
originally posted by: Gorman91
I really see no basis to create letters to communicate visions or some other mystic crap. Letters seem to have been created to communicate seasons and farmer's life.
originally posted by: Gorman91
These charactes have nothing really mystic about them. They are the product of a hunter-gathering society on the very beginnings of farming. Tools to communicate to people how to plant, how to hunt, how to build, and how to live.
A form constant is one of several geometric patterns which are recurringly observed during hallucinations and altered states of consciousness.
originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Anaana
I must admit i hadn't read the paper to check for myself, Genetic studies not really being my thing, so as you have i'll take your word regarding seeming confusion and thanks for clearing that up.
As they do appear to be what was always more likely, an example of an isolated early Dravidian type population speaking a language relating to Proto-Dravidian i still think of course that they offer very good insight into what is seen on the Dilmun seals in terms of the buffalo-bull cult in conjunction with a first breeding couple.
Moving onward now to a consideration of the Babylonian epic and its description of Gilgamesh's journey through the zodiac, the first point to note is that Gilgamesh and Enkidu are meant to be an incarnation of the constellation which we now refer to as Gemini. Gilgamesh was explicitly identified in a late text with the god Meslamta-ea (note the "mes" prefix) which name is the oldest known of that of the god Nergal, whose temple at Kutha was called "Emeslam." Meslamta-ea, furthermore, was one of a pair of deities whose counterpart was known as Lugal-irra, both of whom were linked astronomically with Gemini. These two gods were twins, and they were specifically associated with guarding doorways, particularly the gateway to the underworld, where they stood with bronze axes waiting to dismember the dead. When we recall the strange scene at the beginning of the epic when Gilgamesh and Enkidu first meet each other in a doorway, and then proceed to fight while somehow remaining in or near that doorway, the scene no longer appears so strange when we realize that they are meant to be the Mesopotamian Gemini who guard doorways. Both Gilgamesh and Enkidu, furthermore, like Meslamta-ea and Lugal-irra, carry bronze axes, and the first thing Enkidu does after they have felled the sacred cedar is to cut up its wood and make a doorway out of it.
Underworld deities that often occur together, also called the 'Divine Twins'. They are associated with the underworld god Nergal.
Meslamtaea is already attested in the Early Dynastic IIIa period under the name Lugalmeslama "King of the Meslam(-temple)" . Lugalirra, though, is thus far not attested before the Old Babylonian period. Thus, the connection between these two deities can only be traced back to the Old Babylonian period, not earlier
The spelling and interpretation of Lugalirra's name is ambiguous and several normalised spellings are used. Lambert has translated the name as "Mighty lord". Meslamtaea's name is less ambiguous and probably means "he who comes forth from the Meslam
Lord Nergal was given the underworld, the E-meslam by Enlil and Ninlil. They made him the great lord of the netherworld
To prolong the life of the black-headed people of Sumer where the divine powers are utterly cleansed, to fill their life with happiness, to make them reach an old age, to see that after their death they gather to the place where one is called by his personal god, to the netherworld, and to see that the precious and lasting cultic ordinances are performed befitting the netherworld
The complementary character traits of the armed god are expressed by the names of his two dragons at the gate of the E-meslam, his temple in Kutha: War (Tabazum) and Peace (Tubbum)
"Lord of the big city, whose shadow spreads in the West, who has come out of the Meslam, Bull whose great strength cannot be repulsed,in heaven I am a wild bull , in the netherworld I am a lion , in the land I am king, among the gods I am the fierce one, on the war path I am the standard"