NLBS #34: EMF Sensitivity Syndrome Is Nothing But Junk Science and Misinformation

originally posted by: Bedlam
cell phone is selective. Your body is not.

Your cell phone is NOT selective as in where RF travels, unless your using a yagi....

You must think the human body blocks all RF/EMF, tell that to Senator Ted Kennedy... Oh wait you cant, he probably died from cell phone use. Glioma cancer used to be rare, but in today's world it's not.... wonder why?

originally posted by: Bedlam
60Hz is orders of magnitude larger on your body.... "Harmonic" is one of those terms, though, like "field", "energy", "vibration" and "frequency". You really should have hummed in "Tesla", too, in order to hit the entire bingo card.

And the harmonics are how big? Bingo!!! like octaves in a musical scale, when you hit that sour note it effects YOU!

minus the new age junk... as you have us believe///

originally posted by: Bedlam
And, I suppose you've read the many, many comments on the lack of believability of bioinitiative?

bioinitiative collection is mostly from reputable scientist, I'm sure there is a quack or two out of the 1800 reports they collected... I suppose evolution could be false too, say many reputable scientists.

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: Bedlam
cell phone is selective. Your body is not.

Your cell phone is NOT selective as in where RF travels, unless your using a yagi....

You are not a tuned circuit. The front end of your cell phone most certainly is. It has no trouble separating 60Hz from 900 something MHz...

You must think the human body blocks all RF/EMF, tell that to Senator Ted Kennedy... Oh wait you cant, he probably died from cell phone use. Glioma cancer used to be rare, but in today's world it's not.... wonder why?

How do you know what I must think? I think I probably understand path loss in biosystems better than you, but to answer your question, how do you know? Is there a strong correlation to support it? No. Maybe they are just better at diagnosing glioma now. It's a lot like autism. Again, if there was an irrefutable connection, you'd be hearing it.

And the harmonics are how big? Bingo!!! like octaves in a musical scale, when you hit that sour note it effects YOU!

minus the new age junk... as you have us believe///

I note you haven't really answered. So...what do you see as the amplitude of the 23,666,666th harmonic of a fairly decent sine wave? Because man, that's so far out there,it's not going to be an issue for SETI. eta: if you actually understood anything about science past googling for keywords, you'd have had enough calculus to have covered Fourier analysis, and the answer to this would be something you wouldn't have had to even float across your mind.

bioinitiative collection is mostly from reputable scientist, I'm sure there is a quack or two out of the 1800 reports they collected... I suppose evolution could be false too, say many reputable scientists.

Well, not so much. They're considered fringers. But it agrees with you, so hey, a lack of peer review, control, use of poorly designed research and a definite "cause" makes bioinitiative less dependable than a PETA study by CSPI on eating meat, or the Tobacco Institute on smoking.

I've always wondered if the cognitive dissonance hurts, by the way, when you squall about science that's BAD science, yet reject the opinions of actual scientists on their report by saying science is wrong, while also trying to invoke science to prove your point. "I suppose evolution could be false,too" fails on just so many levels here.

Your statement could be used just as much as a dismissal of bioinitiative, because it's so meaningless and self-referencing. If science is bad, it pretty much obviates ANY research, yes? Only...where do these cell phones come from? My God...all the layers upon layers of useless science...yet they WORK. As you type on a complex machine, on a complicated network, all of which depend on the very thing you dismiss. Must have come from aliens!

originally posted by: Bedlam
Same sort of problems - maybe the stray light is different on that side of the room with the lights off. That's the issue with anecdotal evidence - not only are there way too many uncontrolled variables, but I also imagine you guys talked about the power meter between you and your wife and your son heard that, maybe interpreted it as 'moving him away from something bad' and that alone could have changed his behavior.

1. This happened wintertime in Alaska and he sleeps without a night light... what stray light?
2. He was 2 years old at the time.
3. My experience carries more personal weight to me than your opinion/Joe's opinion/the WHO's opinion, etc. Nowhere in any of the evidence presented in this NLBS or any other source do they actually verify any alternative theories on what the problem is. As far as I am concerned, this is a ridiculous circle jerk consisting of "We don't think it is what you think it is but what we think it could be you think is not the case." It isn't a scenario in which the *LOL* "experts" have vetted any of their alternative theories on, no tests have demonstrated that this is psychological any more than their tests have verified it to be actual EMF sensitivity.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
3. My experience carries more personal weight to me than your opinion/Joe's opinion/the WHO's opinion, etc.

Each cat his own rat, but it's not opinion, in the sense of "I think this is true with no proof at all"

Nowhere in any of the evidence presented in this NLBS or any other source do they actually verify any alternative theories on what the problem is.

What WHAT problem is? The problem of supposed electrosensitivity? Just wanting to make sure here.

no tests have demonstrated that this is psychological any more than their tests have verified it to be actual EMF sensitivity.

Oh, my, yes, yes they have. In the sense that tests have been done that say the EMF sensitive cannot tell if EMF is present or no. Or that they indicate EMF presence if they think EMF is there but not when it actually IS.

FIrst one of several thousand hits on googlescholar: this one, which is typical

eta, from the summary:

A systematic review of 31 blind and double-blind provocation studies yielded no evidence that IEI-EMF individuals could detect the presence of rf-emf, and only seven studies indicated that exposure to rf-emf did affect health indices (Rubin et al. 2005). In two of these studies, however, the authors failed to replicate their own findings. Another four studies involved inappropriate use of statistics, while one reported improved mood in the active exposure condition.

In a situation where the supposed issue can't be demonstrated, by much of anyone, in many repeated tests, there probably isn't a need to go looking for alternative reasons for what's going on, because the tests show nothing IS going on. Other than some sort of anxiety over EMF that doesn't correlate to reality in properly done experiments.

a reply to: imitator

... he probably died from cell phone use. Glioma cancer used to be rare, but in today's world it's not.... wonder why?

Much more probable cause is modern very high carb diet and increase in consumption of sucrose.

I think there is something to it, electromagnetic frequencys can cause all kinds of things, including hilucinations. People living under high tension power lines have reported symptoms for years.

Radio waves are photons with less energy than light. We all live in a powerful magnetic field: the Earth's.
There is no evidence that exposure to these things causes damage.
a reply to: theNLBS

a reply to: Bedlam

Nah, we're not just talking about complex square waves from sinusoidal harmonics... I'm talking about the structure of your body, for example the shape of the human ear can amplify fingernails scratching on a chalkboard, making you hear sour notes.... likewise, if resonant a cell phone can stimulate the Pituitary gland in a way to cause cancer /// which could be misdiagnosed for high carb diets /// yeah right!

If you read some those 1800 studies you will find that non-ionizing radiation can stimulate chemical changes in the body, in which can generate various diseases such as cancer.

I found this pic.... from a rise in cell phone use and testicular cancer!

Forget foil hats...
Groin foil cups is the next IN thing!
Just to be safe no one should carry a cell phone in their pockets.

a reply to: theNLBS

Oooohhhhh...you had me going with the title! Cause, I was gonna say yes, we all get headaches and sometimes who knows why? But you lost me with the wrapped up summations of EMF's in your thread.It was like reading one of those, "I got a pic of a UFO vid...now check it out...just kidding, maybe I was wrong" type of thing!

So, I'll give this NLBS an external scorecard of BS + 5 and might I add, what a waste of "time". If that even exists. Come on Newbies, you can do better with your time! Ridiculous even!!!!!! Stage left even...should I even continue on with my Hanna Barbera style rant?

I'm over it already

Stop cheating

In other news, scientists discovered that standing next to microwaves, or even inside them...completely harmless!

A view of the documentaries Full Signal and Resonance might change you your mind...though it appears you have a worldview and the only facts that matter are the ones that support it.

Just out of curiosity Mr. NLBS, are there any conspiracies that you admit do exist? The irony of an anti-conspiracy show on conspiracy website...now that's some next level bullsh*t. It's like giving Kanye West a cameo verse on an a Slayer album or something.

originally posted by: humanityrising
In other news, scientists discovered that standing next to microwaves, or even inside them...completely harmless!

Microwave ovens heat by dielectric loss. Certainly, heating can cause damage at some point, if you don't dissipate it fast enough. But that's true of sitting in a hot car, or sticking your hand on a gas burner. Do you use a conventional stove? Can it burn you? There you go.

A view of the documentaries Full Signal and Resonance might change you your mind...though it appears you have a worldview and the only facts that matter are the ones that support it.

I've heard if you watch those two and "what the bleep" back to back, your IQ will drop 50 points. You didn't watch "What the Bleep", did you?

Seriously, those can't be taken as documentaries any more than you can "What the Bleep", because one generally considers a documentary to contain factual information, and those don't, for the most part.

In fact, they're among the few bits of entertainment that are guaranteed to get a rise out of someone educated in science, not because they expose the truth or something, but because they're a big Kevin Trudeau commercial wrapped in a movie.

originally posted by: imitator
I'm talking about the structure of your body, for example the shape of the human ear can amplify fingernails scratching on a chalkboard, making you hear sour notes.... likewise, if resonant a cell phone can stimulate the Pituitary gland in a way to cause cancer

Again misusing "resonance" and "harmonic".

Perhaps you can point out something on the human body that can actually resonate with a radio wave. Don't be shy or foggy about it, say something like "I believe [body structure] can resonate with radio waves because [property]".

Your pinnae can, well, not exactly 'amplify', but it can collect sound waves and concentrate them, because it's reflective to sound in the range you hear. Your body is made out of nice saline conductive bits with electrolytes in, and isn't resonant to radio waves. In fact, it dissipates them as heat.

Now, the surface of your body reflects radio waves in air, because you are an impedance discontinuity. But you don't have those nice metallic structures inside you'd need for resonance. At least the way science uses that term. And, no, heme isn't particularly useful in that regard.

You'd also have to show why you don't see these changes you are worried about in lab tests. Pituitary function is something that can be assessed pretty easily.

a reply to: Bedlam

Those electrolytes/ionic liquids, is well known to both absorb and emit electromagnetic signals, though not great condutors but very resonant. Ever hear of MRI? Magnetic Resonance Imaging! And yes you do have metallic like structures inside you in mineral ionic form....

obviously your wasting your time trying to convince me....
I'm very sure I could use my UHF antenna analyzer to measure your body resonance frequency. It would be nice to use someone like you as an antenna, just for shizz and giggles...

originally posted by: imitator
a reply to: Bedlam

Those electrolytes/ionic liquids, is well known to both absorb and emit electromagnetic signals, though not great condutors but very resonant.

Actually they are fairly conductive, and NOT resonant.

Ever hear of MRI? Magnetic Resonance Imaging! And yes you do have metallic like structures inside you in mineral ionic form....

That's as far from a metallic structure as it gets. Do you know anything whatever about MRI other than you googled resonant? It doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here. Or what resonant actually means?

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: theNLBS

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. EMF radiation causes all kinds of problems for those people that are sensitive to its effects. You are welcome to move next to the high-tension power lines. Count me out.

I actually agree with the premise of this video, and that is that it is true that the devices being sold to consumers to stop emf exposure are nothing but BS. Finally, I agree with at least one premise in these NLBS videos. What I heard from the video so far Joe did not address the emf exposure problem, he was addressing the devices being sold with the promise that they stop emf exposure.

a reply to: humanityrising

Just out of curiosity Mr. NLBS, are there any conspiracies that you admit do exist? The irony of an anti-conspiracy show on conspiracy website...now that's some next level bullsh*t.

Quite rightly. Is ATS actually a conspiracy website though? It appears to be a skeptic's website by all appearances.

Are the plains of Africa a herbivore's environment or a carnivore's environment?

Is ATS a website where people who suspect particular circumstances and situations are not co-incidental are helped to explore the bounds of reason by more experienced and science savvy members? That appears how the game is set up. Here is a typical list of subjects that dyed-in-the-wool skeptics rise like marlin to a bait for:

Skeptics-things that they are skeptical of

Each day that passes it seems ATS is becoming more like a skeptic website than one which values the search for the hidden hand or mystery in our human world. Yes, ATS welcomes the conspiracists but only as fodder for the skeptics. No herbivores = no carnivores.

Scientific understanding itself is not complete, perfect and all-knowing. It remains always in a state of present understanding and with that present understanding it often arrogantly assumes to understand all things past present and future. Complete understanding the way I see it entails having a balance of both intuitive and rational perception. Scientific understanding alone is almost always borrowed knowledge - knowledge that remains outside of one's self. That is why anyone bringing any novel subject to the table...I mean chopping block is ordered to present links to the work of other authorities which almost always are the conservative standard.

Intuitive perception at least is one's own and not someone else's perception.

In respect to the OP The book Electric UFOS seems to present some very interesting findings from a researcher concerning EM fields upon the function of the brain. It seems as if the people Budden catalogued exhibiting unusual effects upon their brains had been exposed to extreme levels of EM energy which had thereafter sensitised them to become affected by even low levels.

Electric UFOs review

originally posted by: Bedlam
Actually they are fairly conductive, and NOT resonant.

That depends on how you look at it, and what you mean by resonant. The conductivity of ionic fluids can be more or less as you probably know, the resistivity can vary with resonance, body parts and electromagnetic fields. The way I see it.... it's basically like a RCL circuit, use the cell phone for voltage... and that's my simplified version, as it can get very complicated... but I'm sure you understand.

originally posted by: Bedlam
That's as far from a metallic structure as it gets. Do you know anything whatever about MRI other than you googled resonant? It doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about here. Or what resonant actually means?

It goes much further than that.... Microfluidic technology, I have read reports of intra-cranial liquid implants "antenna" for neuron telepathy, and NO I wasn't reading all that new age stuff........

What the MRI can do is take velocity measurements of ionic fluids, also diagnostic imaging could show fluids that can act like coils etc.... we are talking about ionic fluids, right? Anyway, if I wanted to, I could build a RCL electrofluidic circuit showing resonance with a cell phone or wifi etc. Google that, I bet none has done that..... hell I'd bet you could build it.....

what do I know, I use google.... right.
Your gonna say blah blah blah larmor precession does this, bla blah laminar flows does that etc... you googled. No I giggle....

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: Bedlam
Actually they are fairly conductive, and NOT resonant.

That depends on how you look at it, and what you mean by resonant.

For radio, that's pretty well defined - it's at the point the complex impedance of the circuit becomes 0, or stated another way, the capacitive and inductive reactances are equal. You need something like an LC circuit, and you have none. Alternatively, you can resonate by fitting the wave function in some geometry - a tuned cavity or waveguide - and you're flat out of those as well.

The conductivity of ionic fluids can be more or less as you probably know, the resistivity can vary with resonance, body parts and electromagnetic fields. The way I see it.... it's basically like a RCL circuit, use the cell phone for voltage... and that's my simplified version, as it can get very complicated... but I'm sure you understand.

The problem is I DO understand - and you don't have the L or the C, all you got is R. And that's why you don't look at the ocean and go "Hey, look at that big tank circuit" because, you know, it ain't one.

It goes much further than that.... Microfluidic technology, I have read reports of intra-cranial liquid implants "antenna" for neuron telepathy, and NO I wasn't reading all that new age stuff........

Oh, my. Microfluidic technology is a way of using hydraulic designs to perform logic functions. You used to use it on missiles in the 50's. I don't know what you read, but you can't use it to receive radio broadcasts. It's amazing what you can do with it. Back in the 80s they had a resurgence of old tech using new fab, and farted around with microfluidic designs on etched silicon. Also ballistic electron designs (i.e. integrated tubes) on silicon. They worked ok, but no one really saw the point and you don't hear a lot about that anymore.

What the MRI can do is take velocity measurements of ionic fluids, also diagnostic imaging could show fluids that can act like coils etc....

You can't look at a fluid bath and say "wow, there's a motion of that fluid there, I'm going to envision it as an inductor" because it just doesn't work that way. You saw "resonant" and ran with it, admit it.