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NLBS #34: EMF Sensitivity Syndrome Is Nothing But Junk Science and Misinformation

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posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 12:19 PM
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originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: theNLBS

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. EMF radiation causes all kinds of problems for those people that are sensitive to its effects. You are welcome to move next to the high-tension power lines. Count me out.


I actually lived about 200 yards from high tension lines years ago. Other than the annoying electric hum/buzz from the lines, no ill effects were ever experienced by me and my neighbors, most who had lived there for decades.

EMF sensitivity has about as much scientific and medical basis as tinfoil hat wearers afraid of mind control rays. Utter BS.




posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by: jonnywhite

Why does Sweden recognize it when there's no scienctific research linking EHS to EMF exposure?


Because Sweden is far less stringent in it's standards for determining disability and things that disable. They tend to accept a lot of pseudoscience if it has enough fans.

There was a case a few years ago where a guy applied for disability claiming he was addicted to heavy metal music, and attended over 300 concerts a year. Guess what? He got it. Now he lives off the state while indulging his "addiction".

Link

You can claim anything for disabi9lity in Sweden, and they will believe it.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 01:31 PM
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a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Try living 20 meters from them, which is an entirely different story.

The utter bs comes from those who make ridiculous comparisons.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 02:25 PM
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originally posted by: ParasuvO
Try living 20 meters from them, which is an entirely different story.

I'm not aware of any residential building codes that would allow that for high-tension transmission lines -- possible distribution lines. Not from a potential danger standpoint, but structural hazards.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 02:28 PM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
You guys need to focus more on quality instead of quantity.

We spent a considerable effort in research on this, and expected to find some causation related to higher powered EMF, but found none.

It's unfortunate many people aren't accepting our conclusions. However, the most significant point to consider is that the vast majority of parties attempting to substantiate their claims that non-ionizing EMF is harmful are being both incredibly deceptive, and trying to sell remedies.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 02:45 PM
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originally posted by: theMediator
You seem to believe that the right amount of waves can give relief to fibromyalgia patients yet can't believe that they might cause damage. That just doesn't make sense.


Had you actually listened, you'd have realized they weren't talking about "waves" when you're discussing cranial electrotherapy.



I had no idea about EMF sensivity until I had a cellphone next to my brain. The pain and the headaches that they caused made me want to inform myself and that's when I first heard that I wasn't the only one.


Yet, in repeated double blind studies, people JUST LIKE YOU were consistently unable to determine if they were being radiated or not.

They thought the same thing you do. And they couldn't tell.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: shaneslaughta

Sure did. You failed to discuss the reasoning behind it. Failed to explain that WIFI and microwave ovens operate on a frequency range that are almost the same.

Also failed to talk about the difference in power output.

Was this information left out on purpose to sway the argument?


There are a number of differences between a WiFi router and a microwave oven.

One, the power level. Microwave ovens heat by dielectric effect. And the amount of heat they can produce is directly related to the power output. If it takes a kW to heat a cup of coffee, then a few hundred mW will not, because the load will lose the heat to radiation, convection and conduction faster than you can apply input energy.

Two, a microwave oven's cavity isn't just there to "be a Faraday cage", it's a tuned cavity. No tuning, no cooking. It's not sized randomly by some fashion designer. A wi-fi router uses propagating radio waves, not a waveguide.

Three, the load in a microwave is inside a tuned cavity for God's sake. Unless you're sticking the router antenna in your mouth, you're not in the same situation.

Frequency isn't some magical mystical wondrous thing that causes cooking at 2.45GHz. If you really wanted a microwave oven that kicked butt, you'd have to go to the rotational resonance frequency of water, which is way higher. They picked 2.45GHz because it was in the middle of an unused band and was cheap to produce a magnetron for.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: SkepticOverlord



It's unfortunate many people aren't accepting our conclusions.


Personally, I find that bathing in voluminous clouds of EMF makes my command line powers stronger and sometimes I can tell just before someone is going to email me.

That being said, I think a better way to get your point across might have been to just drill down on the crap that is sold to "protect and heal" people from EMF.

Regardless of what we know or have yet to learn about the effects of EMF on human biological systems, the garbage they sell, especially the jewelry and 'plug-ins' are just that: garbage. Expensive garbage.

The Amazing Qlink Science Pedant Reviewed at BadScience.com




posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: Bedlam
You are correct. It is tuned, just like an antenna must be tuned to a given wavelength. That's more so for the sake of the electronics.

Still there are no long term studies as WIFI is relatively new. That is the point in trying to make.

So your router may not be cooking you like a microwave oven, but there is no evidence yet that all those RF waves are not harming you over the long term.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: shaneslaughta
a reply to: Bedlam
You are correct. It is tuned, just like an antenna must be tuned to a given wavelength. That's more so for the sake of the electronics.


You get a lot more power density in a waveguide than you do from a propagating radio wave, for the same power output. Which is why every microwave oven you see is designed that way.


Still there are no long term studies as WIFI is relatively new. That is the point in trying to make.


WiFi is no different than any other microwave at about the same frequency. How new is "new" to you? 10cm sources have been around since the second world war.



So your router may not be cooking you like a microwave oven, but there is no evidence yet that all those RF waves are not harming you over the long term.


Well, you're asking for proof of a negative. The proper way to put that is, show me proof they ARE harming you. So far, there isn't any. BTW, the power density of a router is awfully low, a meter away from it and you are down to mW per square meter of exposure. It might help to remember sunlight is also EMF and at a lot higher power density and photon energy than wifi.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: Bedlam

I realize all of the points you made.

I also understand that that microwaves have been around forever.

I guess I'm not being clear enough for some to understand.

Never before have we been saturated with this much RF from so many sources. We don't have any real long term studies at this volume of RF exposure.

Edit: Submitted too soon.

As for power density, more data is needed.

Think of it like this. You can be exposed to a big dose of radiation and die fast, or you can be exposed to a tiny dose over time and die over months or years.

The same very well can hold true to any RF source. You pointed out the sun as a source, thanks for that. Ever hear of skin cancer?



edit on 1/23/2015 by shaneslaughta because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 05:50 PM
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originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
It's unfortunate many people aren't accepting our conclusions. However, the most significant point to consider is that the vast majority of parties attempting to substantiate their claims that non-ionizing EMF is harmful are being both incredibly deceptive, and trying to sell remedies.


I would actually be really happy if there was no problem whatsoever with EMF radiation.

On the surface, if we discount the potential dangers from Big Brother, wireless technology is a very good and efficient idea.

But sadly, I really do feel EMF waves. Too much makes my head tingle, I have this sensation of heating inside me and soon after I get a slight headache with variable dizziness. Most laptops don't affect me much but one my girlfriend has, I just can't turn on the wifi. Once I had to repair something in it and usually the wifi is turned off but I didn't check. Since I was also wired, I didn't see the wifi icon on the lower right. Then, I started to have those symptoms and I had no idea why...well the wifi was on. After a couple seconds of turning it off, I started to see relief and the dizziness stopped 10-15 minutes after.

I never had any problems with bluetooth and like I said, most laptops. But some computers, routers and cellphones really affect me. I don't think that just one router 30 feet away is dangerous but from the effects I have, I doubt that having 30 in the same building is beneficial to our health. Just like the Chinese water torture, a single drop won't kill you...

Not believing in EMF sensibility is like not believing someone who's really been abducted by aliens. Just like EMF, you aren't going to get any proof unless you are a victim yourself. Then, you will believe.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:05 PM
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originally posted by: shaneslaughta


Think of it like this. You can be exposed to a big dose of radiation and die fast, or you can be exposed to a tiny dose over time and die over months or years.


Or you can be exposed to a tiny dose all day long, and it's completely natural, because there's always background radiation. Have a banana!

In a similar fashion, you, yourself emit microwaves, all day long, 24/7. O.M.G.!!



The same very well can hold true to any RF source. You pointed out the sun as a source, thanks for that. Ever hear of skin cancer?


Now ask yourself - which part of the sunlight is causing the cancer? Ionizing, or non? And what is wifi? Ionizing, or non?



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: theMediator
Not believing in EMF sensibility is like not believing someone who's really been abducted by aliens. Just like EMF, you aren't going to get any proof unless you are a victim yourself. Then, you will believe.



Unlike abductions though, you CAN test "EMF sensitives" to see if they can tell when that router is on.

When they THINK it's on, (faux operating light) they have symptoms. When they THINK it's off, they don't. But it doesn't correlate to the actual operating state.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:12 PM
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Do I think it causes any actual ill effects? No, but I do think that you can be aware of it at a subconscious levels. It might make you feel jumpy or jittery and that might make you uncomfortable, but I don't it actually causes any real or lasting harm to you.

But like anything that ephemeral, if you actually try to pin it down it's going to be like trying to see something out of your peripheral vision or actually trying to predict something out of your dreams after experiencing a deja vu - chancy and unreliable.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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a reply to: theNLBS

When I see blatant ignorance like this garbage opinion piece in the OP, I have to ask a very simple two part question... Are you a scientist or engineer and if so, do you have any, any at all, exposure to this kind of actual research? I mean like hands-on research where you have actually done a study or written a paper, built something, explored a theory, made a repeatable discovery based on qualified empirical data, been peer reviewed or maybe filed patents?

I somehow doubt it so I will leave you with a quote;

"When a distinguished, but elderly, scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." - Arthur C. Clarke

Cheers - Dave



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:33 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: theNLBS

When I see blatant ignorance like this garbage opinion piece in the OP, I have to ask a very simple two part question... Are you a scientist or engineer and if so, do you have any, any at all, exposure to this kind of actual research?


I do, and he's right.




I somehow doubt it so I will leave you with a quote;

"When a distinguished, but elderly, scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." - Arthur C. Clarke

Cheers - Dave


So, let me get this right - unless they agree with you, scientists are wrong, and if Joe's not a scientist, he's wrong.

Here's a quote for you:

"When someone decides that people who understand the topic can't understand the topic because they're too informed on the topic, they're a crank whose favorite ox is being gored"
Tom O'Bedlam



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:48 PM
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I agree with the snake oil assessment of the protective devices, but I completely disagree with your conclusions that this isn't a true problem caused by EMF.

I am not surprised that the medical community organizations report no clear connection... There's a LOT of money tied into smart meters, CFL bulbs, and electronics in general. These same organizations were pro cigarette for a number of years, too, so no shock there. Money talks, "science" listens.



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 06:54 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Money talks, "science" listens.


So, in your opinion, it's only trustworthy if it agrees with your feelings?

I'm not sure outside the Tobacco Institute if any modern research showed cigarettes were good for you, either. And radio's been going for many, many years. And electric power. You'd think that "big electricity" or whatever would have a hard time silencing EVERY scientist since Tesla and Edison.

eta: it's MY opinion that there are quite a few researchers who'd love to find something like this, but haven't been able to substantiate it.
edit on 23-1-2015 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2015 @ 07:09 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam
eta: it's MY opinion that there are quite a few researchers who'd love to find something like this, but haven't been able to substantiate it.


Well there are many out there but you know...

originally posted by: Bedlam
"...it's only trustworthy if it agrees with your feelings?"


Pot calling kettle black now...



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