Think you know everything about the problem with Islam?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Except the issue is they are killing people of their own faith who dont subscribe to the extremist doctrine they are pushing.....

I think this is the part that people do not want to think about. I would say that about 99% of Muslim violence is Muslim on Muslim. We are more of a collateral damage event than anything else. 11 die in Paris, but that same day I would bet 100s of Muslims were killed by Muslims.

I have said many times in previous posts it is all a numbers game. When you have 100s of extremist it is a local issue, when you 10,000s of extremist it is a world issue. The other 1.4 billion are nice people, but that doesn't take away from such a large number of true 13th century evil mind set.

If I may interject, it's not 13th century. It's a 7th century (Dark Ages) evil mind set.

originally posted by: AuranVector

If I may interject, it's not 13th century. It's a 7th century (Dark Ages) evil mind set.

Ya I might be off a few centuries, boy think if the Catholics went back to the dark ages too, but that is what we are dealing with when we see these Muslims extremest. It is real medieval mentality. I'm not really religious, but one needs to wonder if there really is good and evil if a demon is leading this group pretending to be of the Muslim faith.

originally posted by: JiggyPotamus

[snipped]

I say that a terrorist is someone who commits violence or terrorizes other individuals because of some ideological, political, or religious difference. I maintain that because Islam teaches violence, it should not be protected to the same extent as other religions where religious freedom in general is concerned. Any religion that calls believers to violate the rights of those who do not practice the same religion has no place in a modern society or even world. Basic human rights include the right to choose your own religion. You cannot have people going out and killing others just because they practice a different religion. Therefore any group who would involve themselves in such atrocities should be stamped out. And because Islam is calling believers to violence, as opposed to the believers acting of their own accord, they see themselves as doing God's will. The only way to stop them is to stamp out these teachings. If Islam did not explicitly call believers to violence then we could focus on going after just those committing the violent acts, because it would be only their fault. But because Islam is calling believers to violence it stands to reason that Islam is the enemy. Many will say that there are peaceful Muslims, which is true. But these are the believers who are not explicitly following all of the teachings in the Quran. They are picking and choosing what teachings they follow and which they do not follow. And common sense tells them that killing other people simply because they believe something different is wrong. And they would be right. So you've got good people following a bad religion, but their good nature and common sense are enough to overcome the call to violence.

Well put, JiggyPotamus.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: AuranVector

If I may interject, it's not 13th century. It's a 7th century (Dark Ages) evil mind set.

Ya I might be off a few centuries, boy think if the Catholics went back to the dark ages too, but that is what we are dealing with when we see these Muslims extremest. It is real medieval mentality. I'm not really religious, but one needs to wonder if there really is good and evil if a demon is leading this group pretending to be of the Muslim faith.

The problem is that Muhammad was NOT a spiritual teacher. He was a politician, military leader, mass-murderer, and pedaphile. The Qu'ran (The Recitation) is entirely the work of Muhammad. According to Muhammad, the Angel Gabriel forced him to recite.

I'm not laughing at the suggestion that Muhammad was demonically inspired. In any case, the world is forced to deal with the results of this madness.

originally posted by: AuranVector


The problem is that Muhammad was NOT a spiritual teacher. He was a politician, military leader, mass-murderer, and pedaphile. The Qu'ran (The Recitation) is entirely the work of Muhammad. According to Muhammad, the Angel Gabriel forced him to recite.

I'm not laughing at the suggestion that Muhammad was demonically inspired. In any case, the world is forced to deal with the results of this madness.

He was a Prophet, spiritual teacher, politician, military leader, husband, father, friend & a mercy to the world.
Michael Hart's listing him as #1 most influential person in history, regardless if you agree or no, there's no denying he left a legacy unmatched by other, still followed by 1.7 billion Muslims today.

As for your slanders...

Murder: The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.


The Quran says:

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors."
[Noble Quran 2:190

Do not kill women, or children, or old men, or whoever comes to you with peace and he restrains his hand from fighting; for if you did that, you would certainly have transgressed. Tafseer At-Tabari 2:190


"And those who, when great wrong is done to them, defend themselves." [Noble Quran 42:39]

(39) Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged ? and, verily Allah indeed has the power to help them; (40) those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Rabb (Sustainer, Cherisher) is Allah. For had it not been for Allah repelling some men by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly been destroyed. Surely, Allah helps him who helps Allah. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty." [Noble Quran 22:39-40]

A woman was found killed in one of the battles of the Messenger of Allah, so he condemned the killing of women and children. Hadith [Abu Dawud 2668]

It's evident the Prophet pbuh does not fit the description of a murderer. He had the right to take part in battles in order to protect his people, and in all battles faced, there were only 200-300 casualties from the opposing side. So you can even take your 'mass' equation out of the picture.


As for the absurd statement regarding pedophilia..

Evidence against the slander of the Prophet pbuh marriage to Aisha (r.a)

Aisha r.a was 15-19 years of age when she married. And to compare the physical and mental nature of people whether they be 9,12, 15 or 20 1400 years ago compared to the same age bracket in 2015 is ridiculous.
It just shows how immature for our age we are these modern times. Dumbed down by society.

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

The Quran says:

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors."
[Noble Quran 2:190

That’s taken from Surah 2, “The Cow” p.343
Here’s a fuller quote:

“Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors. Kill them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you….”

“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love it although it is bad for you….”

“They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith – if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, and there they shall abide forever.”

“Believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed: a free man for a free man, a slave for a slave, and a female for a female.”

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

"And those who, when great wrong is done to them, defend themselves." [Noble Quran 42:39]

This is supposedly taken from a very short Surah 42, “Counsel”
I could not see the above quote, but I found these:

“Those who dispute Our (Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel’s) revelations shall know that they have no escape.”

“Let evil be rewarded with like evil.”

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

(39) Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged ? and, verily Allah indeed has the power to help them; (40) those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Rabb (Sustainer, Cherisher) is Allah. For had it not been for Allah repelling some men by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly been destroyed. Surely, Allah helps him who helps Allah. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty." [Noble Quran 22:39-40]

The above quote is taken from Surah 22, “Pilgrimage.”
Here are some quotes from the same Surah 22:

“Garments of fire have been prepared fro the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, the angels will drag them back, saying ‘Taste the torment of Hellfire.’”

“…Moses himself was charged with imposture (as was Muhammad). I bore long with the unbelievers and in the end My scourge overtook them. And how terrible was My vengeance!”

“How many sinful nations We have destroyed! Their cities lie in ruins; desolate are their lofty palaces, and abandoned their wells.”

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

It's evident the Prophet pbuh does not fit the description of a murderer. He had the right to take part in battles in order to protect his people, and in all battles faced, there were only 200-300 casualties from the opposing side. So you can even take your 'mass' equation out of the picture.

WRONG.
In 627 AD: “The Jewish tribe of Qurayza raided by Mohammed; some 800 men beheaded (only one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children sold as slaves.”

From “The Koran” translated by N.J. Dawood, a renowned Arabic scholar and Muslim Iraqi, taken from “Chronological Table of the Main Events in the Life of Mohammed.”

Some dispute the number beheaded at Qurayza to be 700 men. In any case, this was only one attack and there were many. These men were NOT killed in battle. They were Prisoners-of-War (POWs) when they were beheaded because they would NOT accept Muhammad as the “true prophet of God.”

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

As for the absurd statement regarding pedophilia..

Evidence against the slander of the Prophet pbuh marriage to Aisha (r.a)

Aisha r.a was 15-19 years of age when she married. And to compare the physical and mental nature of people whether they be 9,12, 15 or 20 1400 years ago compared to the same age bracket in 2015 is ridiculous.
It just shows how immature for our age we are these modern times. Dumbed down by society.

WRONG.

Muhammad married a 9 year old girl named Aisha. Muhammad was about 50 years old when he spotted the six (6) year old Aisha and asked for her in marriage. Aisha's father considered Aisha too young, so Muhammad had to wait until Aisha was nine (9) before he was allowed to marry her.

My sources are "Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet" by Karen Armstrong. Armstrong bent over backwards to be as lenient towards Muhammad as possible. This book is NOT a hachet job by an Islamophobe. She received the 1999 "Muslim Public Affairs Council Media Award" for it.

The other source I use is "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources" by Martin Lings. Lings was not only an Oxford scholar on Arabic, but converted (unfortunately) to Islam thru his study of Sufism. A very long story. True Sufism is NOT the same thing as Islam, although the two are often confused by the ignorant.

originally posted by: markosity1973
I've been in many a forum on Islam in the past week and there are many who portray Islamic Jihadism as being a problem between Christianity and Islam.

This is not actually the case as these videos below will show. Buddhism is also rising up against it as well. The Rohingya people of Burma are perhaps the most forgotten and most persecuted people of the world today.

It would seem that nobody is aware of the plight of these people, nor are they aware of the fact that another religion takes issue with Islam.

The most shocking thing in this video is the point the old man makes;

'There are many Islam nations out there, will not one of them take us in?'

Good point actually. These are Muslim people and they want to live the Muslim way. Isis wants to create a Muslim religious state. I don't see them doing the Muslim thing and welcoming these people in. Nor do I see peaceful developed nations like Malaysia offering any support.


For those of you who are in shock and disbelief at the thought of Buddhism doing this and asking 'is this really true?' here is another vid telling more about the Buddhist involvement in this.

This is a worthy topic, markosity, but the thread has been derailed and it looks like you've abandoned it.
It's hard to get a fuller portrait of Ashin Wirathu. I do NOT trust our media to be fair.

It seems that in 2003 Wirathu was sent to prison for 25 years for "inciting anti-Muslim hatred." What exactly this consisted of is not clear to me:

1.) If Wirathu was exhorting people to physically attack people simply for being Muslim, this is flatly criminal. No civilized person would condone such behavior.

2.) if Wirathu was trying to warn his fellow Burmese countrymen about the dangers of Islam -- it is a primitive, toxic ideology disguised as a religion -- that is a free-speech issue. Wirathu has read the Qu'ran and was no doubt alarmed by its contents, as well as by the destruction of the Bamiyan buddhas in Afghanistan by Muslims.

The conflict between Muslims and the native Burmese stretches back to about 1100 AD. Long history.
However the Rohingya people were/are Muslim Indians (probably Bengali) brought into Burma (Myanmar) by the British (era of British rule in Burma, 1824-1948).

I watched the videos. I was especially saddened by the woman weeping beside the bloody body of her dead husband who had been beaten to death for being Muslim. I hope the Rohingya find refuge in an Islamic country.

a reply to: AuranVector

2:178. O you who believe! Al-Qisas (the Law of equality) is prescribed for you in case of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if the killer is forgiven by the brother (or the relatives) of the killed (against blood money), then it should be sought in a good manner, and paid to him respectfully.

This is the Law of equality. The 2 tribes would retaliate a killing without equality. On one hand, a side would ask for double the blood money to be paid as compensation. And during their feuds, several men were for killed in retaliation for the killing of 1 of their own. This law of Al-Qisas was to bring equality, not to avenge 1 murder with several, or ask that in blood money beyond means. The guilty party (murderer) was to be killed for the one he had killed, unless blood money was accepted. And Allah states that it is better to forgive, than to persue revenge.



Aisha r.a age...
I think there is enough evidence in the link I provided. The evidence is based from early sources including some hadith (one in particular regarding the battle Aisha r.a took part, in which the minimum age to partake was 15 years of age).
Some cross referencing with her age compared to Fatima r.a and others which confirms she was older than 6 or 9 at the time of her marriage.

It is not my duty to convince you or anyone on here. I'm providing an alternative view, It is up to the individual to seek more knowledge on the subject if they are genuinely interested. (There are some who may only have intentions to distort the image of Islam regardless). So I won't go back & forth in circles regarding it every time someone mentions it.


I'm not sure exactly as to what you were getting at with your verses regarding the punishments in the afterlife so do excuse me If I am off track with my reply.

If the verse you had given: "Muslims believe the people of the Book (Christians & Jews) pertain to the message of monotheism, call to the Oneness of God. Trinity wasn't the belief of the early followers of Jesus, that came later. Churches & Mosques can also be used as places for worship by Muslims."

was a response to:

"For had it not been for Allah repelling some men by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly been destroyed."

I'm assuming you think there is a conflict, and you have assumed that all Christians & Jews are non believers?

The verse quoted regarding punishments in the afterlife are for the 'unbelievers'. There are Christians & Jews who will be believers on Judgement day. Islam accepts Christianity & Judaism in it's pure form.

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87)

"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).

originally posted by: AuranVector

originally posted by: Ihsaan

[snipped]

It's evident the Prophet pbuh does not fit the description of a murderer. He had the right to take part in battles in order to protect his people, and in all battles faced, there were only 200-300 casualties from the opposing side. So you can even take your 'mass' equation out of the picture.

WRONG.
In 627 AD: “The Jewish tribe of Qurayza raided by Mohammed; some 800 men beheaded (only one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children sold as slaves.”

From “The Koran” translated by N.J. Dawood, a renowned Arabic scholar and Muslim Iraqi, taken from “Chronological Table of the Main Events in the Life of Mohammed.”

Some dispute the number beheaded at Qurayza to be 700 men. In any case, this was only one attack and there were many. These men were NOT killed in battle. They were Prisoners-of-War (POWs) when they were beheaded because they would NOT accept Muhammad as the “true prophet of God.”

Quite the assumption stating wrong, as if to say only your view is correct. There are 3 sides to a story, yours, mine and the truth.

The number of people killed..

There is no mentioned in the Quran or hadith. The seerah was written 150 years after the event, and unlike hadith it does not contain isnad/chain of authority going back to the Prophet pbuh. There are scholars/historians who believe the tribe had numbered 400-500 in total (including women and children). So there is no concluding evidence to say 800 were killed. Video link at bottom.


They were killed for treason... Not because they didn't accept Islam

In an effort to unite the city in peace, the Prophet Muhammad drafted the Covenant of Medina (mithaq-i-Medina) in 622 CE, whose general terms were - Muslims and Jews shall live as one people, each one of the parties shall keep to its own faith, and neither shall interfere with that of the other. In the event of a war with a third party, each was bound to come to the assistance of the other, provided the latter were the aggrieved and not the aggressors. In the event of an attack on Medina, both shall join hands to defend it and peace, when desirable, shall be made after consultation with each other.

This was the second time the Qurayza intended hostilities towards their Muslim neighbors; after the first incident, they had been forgiven, while another affiliated tribe was expelled from Madina. The second violation, however, was an existential threat, as it was an act of treason in the thick of a siege by the Meccans.

The method of punishment was handed down to them according to their OWN JEWISH LAWS.

The leader of Banu Qurayza agreed that Sa'd ibn Mu'adh (ex-jew) sentenced the punishment from the scriptures.

Deuteronomy 20:12-14
12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Sahih Muslim (Book 019, Number 4370)

.....They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), but he referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).


Truth about Banu Qurayzah

a reply to: Ihsaan

We will have to agree to disagree. I trust the integrity of my sources.

On the other hand, I think your sources were creating to comfort Muslims and to mislead non-Muslims.

originally posted by: AuranVector
a reply to: Ihsaan

We will have to agree to disagree. I trust the integrity of my sources.

On the other hand, I think your sources were creating to comfort Muslims and to mislead non-Muslims.

I see my brain fart, but it's way too late to edit. What I meant to say:

On the other hand, I think your sources were CREATED to comfort Muslims and to mislead non-Muslims.

Islam is a peaceful religion and since it doesn't teach violence and exists in the realm of thought and a book. Whoever says any religion is violent is too dumb to understand evil doesn't discriminate and any group of people that large is gonna have some bad apples. Just like we do. We endlessly bomb other countries. So is that Christianity's fault. Your a follower of the common opinion with no capacity to decide what you should think if you think Islam is a violent religion. Wake up, stop getting brainwashed. Stand up for the unjustly persecuted instead of slandering a peaceful majority.

Islam is a peaceful religion and since it doesn't teach violence and exists in the realm of thought and a book. Whoever says any religion is violent is too dumb to understand evil doesn't discriminate and any group of people that large is gonna have some bad apples. Just like we do. We endlessly bomb other countries. So is that Christianity's fault. Your a follower of the common opinion with no capacity to decide what you should think if you think Islam is a violent religion. Wake up, stop getting brainwashed. Stand up for the unjustly persecuted instead of slandering a peaceful majority.

Religions are just theories on papers.

Its people who become peaceful or not peaceful, based on how they perceive the teachings from a religion or based on their influences.

Islam has three meanings: Peace, submission to the universal law, or God, and safety.

Many Muslims are affected by their religion mainly peacefully.

I know ex criminals that are no longer menaces to society because of Islam.

The problem today ONLY is in one sect of Islam, Wahhabism, where some within that sect have been possessed by a spirit of ignorance and violence.