Gun owners - Have you apologised for a spree killing recently?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Humm, ya know I've never seen instructions in the 2nd Amendment demanding that firearm owners Hunt down those who don't own firearms and either convince them to bear arms or kill them...

I find the premise of this thread to be flawed.

Furthermore, I don't recall the "motivation" for mass killings to usually include the fact that humour has been poked at a revered assault rifle or machine gun.

This is one of the most tenuous comparisons I've ever read.

When a spree shooting happens no gun owner thinks "Good, served 'em right!". The only thing they have in common is that they own a gun, and the shooter used a gun. Spree killers are the only ones that agree with their ideals. You might as well say people that wear pants, do you apologize when someone wearing pants commits a crime? Problem is there are a scary number of Muslims in every country that approve of terrorist action.

It was clear from the title alone what the OP was trying to do. Don't judge a group because some people in a given group commit acts of violence. I'm fine with that, that's a good point. I completely disagree with people that say Islam as a whole is an issue. It's just not true. There are tons and tons of good Muslims. Problem is, there are tons and tons of BAD Muslims, and they seem to get a free pass because no one wants to insult the good ones. Tough, we aren't blaming all the wonderful Muslims that contribute to society and speak out against these atrocities, most of us are simply saying it's time to take a more realistic approach, and that Islam is at the center of the majority of global conflicts. The majority of terrorist attacks. Why is that a problem?

Where this thread falls apart is that there are a surprising number of Muslims in Western countries that are actually supportive of extremist action, including murder. People were murdered over a cartoon, and many Muslims, in every country will be lauding those actions. Place in Germany was just firebombed, there was a large group in Afghanistan celebrating the murders.

Hear, I'll quote a post on from Reddit (and you should ALL READ IT IN IT'S ENTIRETY, this is the short version).

Have you heard that Islam is a peaceful religion because most Muslims live peacefully and that only a "tiny minority of extremists" practice violence? That's like saying that White supremacy must be perfectly fine since only a tiny minority of racists ever hurt anyone. Neither does it explain why religious violence is largely endemic to Islam, despite the tremendous persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries.

In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number. However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.

The following polls convey what Muslims say are their attitudes toward terrorism, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, violence in defense of Islam, Sharia, honor killings, and matters concerning assimilation in Western society. The results are all the more astonishing because most of the polls were conducted by organizations with an obvious interest in "discovering" agreeable statistics that downplay any cause for concern.

So let's have some polls (again, there are way more at the link)

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers www.telegraph.co.uk...
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified www.cbsnews.com...&date=2011-04-06 www.webcitation.org...
NOP Research: 24% of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks; 24% of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks www.channel4.com...
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq. people-press.org...
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children: pajamasmedia.com... www.ynetnews.com...
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans 32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans 41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans 38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans 83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose) 62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose) 42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose) A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans: (Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%) About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S. www.worldpublicopinion.org...
Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah 30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah 45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative) 43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative) pewglobal.org...
Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative). 49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative) 49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative) 39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative) pewglobal.org...
Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified. 34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified. pewglobal.org...
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops. www.populuslimited.com... www.danielpipes.org...
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified. 35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall). 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). 22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall). 29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall). pewresearch.org...=60
Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never). 28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never). www.people-press.org...
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified pewresearch.org...=60
ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities. 27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate. www.scotsman.com... www.danielpipes.org...
Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack. www.fosis.org.uk... www.danielpipes.org...
ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police. www.icmresearch.co.uk... www.danielpipes.org...
Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified. 37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target". www.populuslimited.com... www.danielpipes.org...

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: neformore

Last I checked if a gun owner sees someone misusing a weapon with intent to kill they more than likely WILL do something about it.

The other difference is that with no Islam there are no radicals of Islam, with no gun ownership there are still criminals.

I am all for Muslims creating a terrorist police force and policing themselves, like us citizens have.

Last I checked a number of muslims were trying to stoo radicals.

Like the french police that got shot or the kurds.

a reply to: Domo1

Here is a source for the sources.

Source of sources

When I start seeing gun owners supporting the spree killings with these kind of numbers, I'll concede you have a point OP. As it stands, I've never heard a gun owner condone any of those attacks. Your point doesn't make sense, it just doesn't exist. No gun owners are in support of atrocities committed with guns, but many Muslims support terrorism.

There were so many better comparisons you could have made. You wanted to rile people up, and it sadly worked.

Islam is a problem. Sticking your head in the sand is a problem. Not all Muslims believe extremism is justified, but a disturbing number seem to.

And since I have to say it, I do not think all Muslims are bad, or even have to apologize. I want the rest of the world to recognize that there is indeed a problem in every Islamic majority country, and that the people that commit these acts of barbarism are not the only ones in the Muslim community that appreciate them.

Wait a second

There we go

a reply to: Domo1

A couple of idiots that is all.
I have been told I live in a no go zone....I laugh.
Not one white or none muslim I know around bradford have had muslim trouble.

ohhhh so that why my drill sergeants corrected me way back, I never understood why they wanted me to refer to my gun or firearm as a weapon. It's because they were prepping me for a future in crime. a reply to: intrptr

a reply to: boymonkey74

Is that all you're going to reply to?

What about all the other things I've said?

I like you man, you have the best Deny Ignorance banner entry.

Do you really believe Islam isn't a problem?

When will it become a problem?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: neformore

Last I checked if a gun owner sees someone misusing a weapon with intent to kill they more than likely WILL do something about it.

The other difference is that with no Islam there are no radicals of Islam, with no gun ownership there are still criminals.

I am all for Muslims creating a terrorist police force and policing themselves, like us citizens have.

Last I checked a number of muslims were trying to stoo radicals.

Like the french police that got shot or the kurds.

So all these Muslim terrorists go to mosques and not 1 person has any idea whatsoever? You really believe that?

When Mizanur Rahman spoke in London to Muslims, where are the Muslims so outraged they leave, or better yet, yell at him to stop? We are not talking Iran, or ISIS, we are talking a man in London preaching to Muslims there, who are listening.

a reply to: Domo1

Not around were I live it isn't.
Of course fundie islaam is just like any fundie religion.
All the muslim co worker's and my neighbours I have spoken to have expressed outrage about the recent events.
I hate all religions but the people around me have not shown any sign of hatred towards me...I soppose I could learn something from them.

a reply to: neformore
If there werent gun owners, would police officers be allowed to carry guns? The military? If so, the comon man would have no defense against armed corruption. Being able to defend oneself is justifiably needed in order to protect the common and singular life that is so un appreciated today. If guns werent legal, then no military or police should carry them, but then chemical warfare and explosives would be used.

If guns were illegal to the populace, whats to stop extremists from obtaining them on the black market? Whats to stop them from hijacking planes with razors and swiss army knifes and crashing said planes into giant buildings? Anyone can build a gun of sorts from common materials, as long as there is hardware stores I could build a bazooka and shoot hydroclauric acid filled paintballs out of them.

Guns are legal for our own protection against the state and military and foreign invasions. Allowing civillians to own guns deters criminals from randomly attacking. The gun laws in Europe are so much stricter than in the USA, and yet people are able to get them with enough cash, which puts everyone else at much of a higher risk. Guns are for protection, killing, hunting, defense, etc. People have the right to choose how to use them just like I choose not to blow up gas stations when people are pumping, it is that easy. One explosive would send a gas station into oblivion and yet I don't, and I know how to. So it's more of "how can the governent control the masses more in order prevent future attacks." Now you're asking for trouble. Letting the government be in control of all weapons. Idiotic and repulsive.

I would allow anyone to step one foot into my house to try to rob me or rape my family, cause I know, I will have two barrels two their face and a barrel to the midsection. That is my right to protect myself and family, if you want to take that awy then you can move to Japan or UK or wherever guns are illegal and see if violence persists. And it does. If guns are illegal, then bats and knives are used. Dumb. Violence is rampant everywhere in each and every country, it is only in the USA that the police are armed to handle such things.

a reply to: Domo1

It will be a problem when they pit it in our schools and government like any religion.
I can only talk aboit my experiences.
I love you to man :-D

a reply to: Dark Ghost

That's an excellent point... I can't ever recall anyone being killed in Samuel Colt's name, either.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Hugs and kisses.

I worry that's coming. I think that we should all allowed to be able to express whatever opinion we want, without fear of being shot.

I personally find the cartoons in bad taste. I think that's someone's right, just as it's my right to disagree, it's their right to have their own opinions and express them how they see fit. There's a reason I didn't jump on the post a picture bandwagon, and it wasn't because I was scared.

I know it's seemed like I'm anti Muslim, but that is not at all how I feel. I have been so very impressed by so many Muslims over the years. I actually deeply respect the religion, just worry there is an issue of people abusing it.

I'm still laughing about that banner submission. I was expecting a bunch of people to take it super seriously and I scroll down and see that... thing. It's such an obvious choice, if it's not picked not only will ignorance be denied, but beauty!

a reply to: butcherguy


I'm pretty sure that I didn't/haven't replied to, or quoted your post, Which is probably a good indicator that my post was/is not directed at you.

So not sure why you felt the need to point that out, but thanks.

While you may have understood what the OP is about, enough people didn't and tried to defend against a point that hadn't been made (gun control) that I felt compelled to display my annoyance at the lack of reading comprehension shown.

There is nothing satirical about the subject.

If 10000 murders occur every year but guns are used to defend life 2 million times

You are 200x more likely to be saved by a gun in the US than murdered by one.

You could also say there is a 95% success rate for guns used by good guys in stopping guns used by bad guys, it's not entirely true because the threat of guns may stop many more.

If you were to "restrict" people who follow the law you are simply enabling those who do not.

If you think otherwise I think it would be enlightening to stop by your local detainment facility and ask a violent offender if they are scared to use a gun against you and maybe go to jail again.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

And that's a good thing.

I find the premise of your argument flawed, as you completely miss out the concepts of both personal interpretation and personal opinion.

Wow, all these posts writing in defence of guns instead of understanding what the OP is actually about!

I am dismayed by how many of those are mods though. Maybe I expected too much?

originally posted by: neformore
I find the premise of your argument flawed, as you completely miss out the concepts of both personal interpretation and personal opinion.

No, I see what you did. You tried to relate to unrelateable groups and to cover the massive gap in the comparison, you place a CYA statement at the end of the comparison basically saying "If you point out the big gap, you're missing the point."

What I am saying is that without the interpretation differences within the Constitution (or any other guiding principle that makes some of us support the right to own firearms) which exist within the Koran, the comparison is ridiculous. Nobody is out there killing people in the name of Smith and Wesson, nobody is out there saying "The great prophet of freedom, Thomas Jefferson ordered us to kill the unarmed.", and nobody is is shooting up pizzarias in Tel Aviv because the patrons inside purchased a different brand of ammo, as forbidden in the sacred NRA scrolls.

On the other hand, we can absolutely have the argument as to whether or not the holiest of books in Islam directs the adherents to kill those who believe differently than they do. The amazing thing is that, regardless of how many times Muslims try to rip on the use of that argument as being racially motivated or bigotted, ISLAM ITSELF can't even agree on whether it's among their instructions or not.

originally posted by: neformore
Gun owners and advocates of the second amendment.

You believe in a right to bear arms - namely that individuals have the right to own a weapon if they wish to.

The constituton of the USA specifically covers such in the second amendment, and other countries round the world also have similar laws allowing the posession of weapons.

In the US, gun advocacy is rife with various pressure groups and organisations exist solely with the viewpoint of protecting the right to bear arms - the NRA comes to mind but there are, I believe, smaller groups.

The problem is that people with guns kill people. And the gun community isn't doing anything about it.

When was the last time you saw a mass rally by gun advocates such as the NRA protesting a spree killing?

When was the last time a gun owner apologised to you personally for the actions of others of their ilk?

Why haven't the majority of gun advocates stood up and done something about the spree killings, weeded out these extremist spree killers before they've struck and got rid of them?

When will gun owners reform their views that everyone has the right to bear a weapon, and change the writen advocacy of such, and their enshrined laws? They obviously don't care or they'd have done something about it by now. They probably secretly support the spree killings don't they?

Why aren't the gun community doing anything?

 

Disclaimer : This post is topical satire. Its aimed at trying to stimulate some deeper thinking on a particular subject. Its not meant as a slight against anyone personally. Its a parallel. I can guarantee that probably 50% of the posters who reply to this OP will not read this disclaimer.

I personally think you are way out of line here, killing spree's are not done in protest of not / having the right to bear arms. Usually by a bullied / mentally ill person with access to a fire arm or arms and never in the name of the NRA or 4th amendment.

In fact, regardless of your disclaimer I challenge that you comments are so wrong it is not satire nor stimulating relevent thinking, it's borderline trolling trying to get a random raise from gun owners by assimilating it with the recent muslim attack in France.

It wouldnt suprise me if you denied there was any link because you didnt directly mention it, but then you would be in the bottom 50% of dishonest people.

However, I think if I were to relate it to this muslim event, not one of the NRA supported the Columbine massacre, in fact, if I remember correctly, they did release a statement, will have a look.