I have a question for the freemasons here

Concerning masonry as a religion, this is a subject I'm a little touchy on so forgive the long post. I've provided quotes and the URL where you'll find the complete article.
Here's a quote from the Grand Lodge of California website:

Is Masonry a religion?

Masonry is a fraternity, not a religion. Masonry acknowledges the existence of God, but Masonry does not tell a person which religion he should practice or how he should practice it. That is a function of his house of worship, not his fraternity.

Sometimes people confuse Masonry with a religion because we call some Masonic buildings "temples." But we use the word in the same sense that Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes called the Supreme Court a "Temple of Justice." Neither Masonry nor the Supreme Court is a religion just because its members meet in a "temple." Most California lodges now refer to their buildings as Masonic centers.

www.freemason.org...

Another quote, from Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon:

First, as regard religion. Freemasonry is dedicated to, and devoted to Brotherhood. Brotherhood rests upon a basis of religion. Every Mason must believe in a Supreme Being, the V.S.L. must be open at every meeting of the Lodge. Before engaging in any important undertaking a Mason should seek aid and guidance through prayer to the Great Architect of the Universe. This is religion, but not a religion. It is faith-but not worship attached to any one altar. It is the ground which underlies all religions, all churches, all creeds, all sects. Once Masons stand together on that ground they can then proceed to build for themselves this and must not, interfere with them in so doing, but it does insist that whatever may be their private opinions they shall stand upon that ground.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

and finally, aslo from the above Grand Lodge website:

Our purpose as freemasons is not that of a religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion. *Freemasonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for religion.
*Freemasonry advocates no sectarian faith or practise.
*We seek no converts.
*We solicit no new members.
*We raise no money for religious purposes.
*We have no dogma or theology. Religious discussion is forbidden in a masonic lodge thereby eliminating the chance for any masonic dogma to form.
*It offers no sacraments and does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with the modes of recognition only and not with the means of salvation.
*By any definition of religion accepted by our critics, we cannot qualify as a religion.
*Freemasonry supports religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practise, it expects each member to follow his own faith.

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

[edit on 12/16/2004 by cotwom]

One question, who the hell is Albert Pike, if he is such a force to be reckoned with and all that is Freemasonry, how come we in the UK have not heard of him, well me at least.

Has he been dead a couple of hundred years?

Is he someone who published some sort of book? I presume he was for him to be quoted but I also presume it was his opinion otherwise the fraternity would be named Albert Pikensry surely

Originally posted by michaelsharp

no I'm not misunderstanding you and I understand what Pike is saying. What I'm saying is that that particular philosophical line is not Divine wisdom. It merely justifies power, inequality and all that jazz. You can see the progress in thinking here. From the notion of equilibrium to the notion that evil exists in order to 'purge" the unworthy and uplift the righteous?

You seem to be purposely mischaracterizing this entire thing. Again, for the umpteenth time, Pike is not "justifying" anything. In his book, concerning evil, he does nothing but point out the obvious: evil exists, and therefore God must allow it to exist. If you have a problem with this premise, don't blame Pike; that's sort of like blaming a journalist for a crash crash simply because he reported on it after the fact.

so whose unworthy and whose righteous? Are the starving children in the world being "purged" so that the the righteous rich westerners can find their salvation.

According to Pike, the "worthy" and the "righteous" would be those who fed the starving children, while the "righteous rich westerners" (if you mean by this someone who does nothing to help) would be the unworthy and the unrighteous.

I think this is a profound misunderstanding of the nature of God and Divinity. The whole party line about being chucked out of the garden, being on earth as trainees, its all hogwash. Its all a justification for power, inequality, and suffering.

I think the profound misunderstanding is in your interpretation of Pike. You continue to force a viewpoint on him that he never had, and then vilify him for it.

Originally posted by Bondi
One question, who the hell is Albert Pike, if he is such a force to be reckoned with and all that is Freemasonry, how come we in the UK have not heard of him, well me at least.

Brother Pike was a noted Masonic scholar in the mid to late 19th century here in the USA. He is best known as being Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33�, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, for the Southern Jurisdiction of the US. He also served several terms as Worshipful Master in his Blue Lodge, was Grand High Priest of the Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of Arkansas, founding member and first Grand Captain General of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States, Provincial Grand Master of the Royal Order of Scotland for the United States, and Supreme Magus of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society.

Outside of Masonry, he was a former Captain in the US Army, General in the Confederate Army, musician, poet, journalist, attorney, explorer, and philosopher. He is the author of many books, covering everything from Masonry, to exploring the west, to the history of the Arkansas state legal system.

Has he been dead a couple of hundred years?

Brother Pike passed on in 1891.

Is he someone who published some sort of book? I presume he was for him to be quoted but I also presume it was his opinion otherwise the fraternity would be named Albert Pikensry surely

He is best known inside the Scottish Rite as the author of the degree rituals. He published the Lectures to the degrees of the Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction under the title "Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry."

So he didn't actually write about the 3 degrees of Freemasonry, but the degree lectures of Scottish Rite.

Will have to look into the fella, I've researched freemasonry from this side the water and using mainly english and scottish sources and never recall seeing his name !

Seems people have more a problem and fascination with the rites than Freemasonry, from the info they keep posting about 32nd, 33rd and all that.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by intrepid
MS, if your opinions are already set why are you bothering to ask questions? You don't accept the answers. Seems like troll-like behavior to me.

I support the Masonic position, however I do not consider this trolling. MS is merely being provocative from my point of view and I would prefer his type of arguement not be limited. No doubt you will do as you wish, however I find that the recent uptick in warns and bans to be detrimental to the ATS mantra of "Deny Ignorance".
.

Thanks for this. I'm really not intending to offend anyone and I really am interseted. I read over Pike's 5th and 6th degrees and was impressed with most of what I read. I'm not interested in misrepresenting freemasonry or condeming its practitoners. I'm interested in the thoughts behind it all and whether or not there are some things that are in contradiction to the true will of the mason.

I guess I would find this "true will" in the stated desire to live an upright, moral, and divinely inspired life. I mean, that's an awesome thing to strive for. But its hard and lots of things can get in the way.

ms

>In my view, Freemasonry cannot be a religion. A religion dictates a belief, >whereas Freemasonry gives a man the Freedom to believe

most religions no longer dictate. I think most say "here is the truth, accept it if you want" which seems to be what freemasons would say.

>It |is not a "system of institutionalised beliefs"

No, it is most certainly an institution and the beliefs in the teachings are the cornerstone.

>Freemasonry. Neither can Freemasonry be blamed for his choosing of religion >because it is totally neutral on the subject -

Not from what I've seen. The 33degree of The Scottish right (did I get that right) makes absolute statements about the truth. This is to be found in the Rule of Equilibrium which is said is the basic principle of this universe.

I do not get the impression from reading over Pike's work that this is an optional belief for Mason.

But maybe it is?

>I believe that Freedom to choose is an aspect of God - Freewill is one of the >divine attributes. You may choose to follow a god or you may choose not to, >but either way, you were given the ability to choose.

I would say that nothing exists outside of God and so what you are describing here is an illussion. How can there be God and Not God when all that exists issues from God.

>The "starving children" that you refer to will not have that choice. Poverty is >the biggest breeder of fundamentalism -

I think wealth is the biggest breader of fundamentalism. But either way I agree with you here. People should be totally free to follow whatever path home they wish.

But in my mind some of the things in the 33Degree The Secret Master (and some things I've seen elsewhere) contradict this totally wonderful and Divinely inspired outlook that we have here.

>So heck. Blame Freedom for the state of this world if you want to. Personally, >I don't think that it's Freedom which is to blame though. It's those who want >to impose their beliefs on others who are the culprits.

Agreed. We should not impose our beliefs on others. But I would add neither should we impose and/or justify our greed. Its razor's edge to walk isn't it.

ms

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by michaelsharp


You seem to be purposely mischaracterizing this entire thing. Again, for the umpteenth time, Pike is not "justifying" anything. In his book, concerning evil, he does nothing but point out the obvious: evil exists, and therefore God must allow it to exist. If you have a problem with this premise, don't blame Pike; that's sort of like blaming a journalist for a crash crash simply because he reported on it after the fact.

so whose unworthy and whose righteous? Are the starving children in the world being "purged" so that the the righteous rich westerners can find their salvation.

According to Pike, the "worthy" and the "righteous" would be those who fed the starving children, while the "righteous rich westerners" (if you mean by this someone who does nothing to help) would be the unworthy and the unrighteous.

I think this is a profound misunderstanding of the nature of God and Divinity. The whole party line about being chucked out of the garden, being on earth as trainees, its all hogwash. Its all a justification for power, inequality, and suffering.

I think the profound misunderstanding is in your interpretation of Pike. You continue to force a viewpoint on him that he never had, and then vilify him for it.

Ok ok, Pike is not justifying those things. You are right, it is like blaming a journalst.

DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!!

and I'm not vilifying Pike. I'm just dealing with the ideas he put on paper.

>According to Pike, the "worthy" and the "righteous" would be those who fed >the starving children, while the "righteous rich westerners" (if you mean by >this someone who does nothing to help) would be the unworthy and the >unrighteous.

Got that one right!!!

ms

Originally posted by Bondi
So he didn't actually write about the 3 degrees of Freemasonry, but the degree lectures of Scottish Rite.

Will have to look into the fella, I've researched freemasonry from this side the water and using mainly english and scottish sources and never recall seeing his name !

Seems people have more a problem and fascination with the rites than Freemasonry, from the info they keep posting about 32nd, 33rd and all that.

"some people" are just curious. I am just discussing and questioning these things. Is questioning not allowed.

ms

Originally posted by the_truth_wants_2_B_found

Originally posted by the_truth_wants_2_B_found
I am growing tired of vague explanations by Masons. Masons are a craft not unlike Witchcraft, or Wicca. They believe in a higher level of enlightenment and strive to achieve this higher level of conciousness while keeping the masses unaware. They are meerly a part of the largest secret ever. Mankind is on the brink of a huge evolutionary step of conciousness, a level of the ILLUMINATED. Masons along with other organizations strive to control this level of conciousness to within their societies and other secret societies. They use tools such as Christianity, which is a hoax, as a means to control the masses. Christianity is invented to protect their secret. That is why Christianity teaches against all forms of Witchcraft, Satanism, etc. It is meerly to scare the masses into looking no further, into not seeking any further enlightenment or spiritual growth. To fear what is truly our next step in evolution. An enlightened state, a new level of conciousness. The global elite and secret societies of the world are aware of this next step (have been for centuries) and are trying to manipulate and control what is ultimately mankinds destiny.

I personally am not a Christian so don't take me for a radical, I seek the truth. Will a knowledgeable person (preferably Mason or Illuminati) respond?

I would love some more of you to please respond to the above quote. I am new here and am interested in any of you validating or contradicting what I have to say. This is a theory I have developed and pieced together over years of silent studies. I really don't discuss this with anyone, so I am interested in hearing what any of you have to say. Please elaborate as much as possible.

hi ttw2bf

the things you talk about are illusionary power, improvement/power or goodness is only ever real to a individual when he has improved on his own soul.

we are reminded that the soul is like a fractal of light of the original creator, but is also now our own peice/place in/of existence, the path to everlasting life goodness and power is the cultivation of a individuals god spark/soul.

my thread "The Challenge of Evil", has some decent information on how to improve the soul.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 17-12-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

[edit on 17-12-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

[edit on 17-12-2004 by MysticOfRadiance]

Originally posted by Bondi
So he didn't actually write about the 3 degrees of Freemasonry, but the degree lectures of Scottish Rite.

He wrote about the first three degrees of Ancient Craft Masonry also, but his authority only extended over the Scottish Rite degrees in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. Therefore, even though he wrote about the Blue Lodge Degrees, he held no more "authority" over them than you are I.

Seems people have more a problem and fascination with the rites than Freemasonry, from the info they keep posting about 32nd, 33rd and all that.

I've found that many non-Masons have a belief that the higher the number of degrees one possesses, the "higher rank" they are in the Fraternity. This is of course a misunderstanding, but it is a natural one. Most people are inclined to believe that the higher number of things one possesses, the better of he / she is. But this is a materialistic outlook, and is invalid in Masonry.

The analogy I've used here before is that of a rope. A rope that is 33 feet long is not "higher" than a rope that is 3 feet long. And so it is with Masonic degrees. The first three degrees contain the complete system of Freemasonry, while all the additional degrees that have been instituted are simply elaborations on those first three. The so-called "higher degrees" cannot make a Master Mason "more of a Mason" than he already is; their purpose is simply to make him a better Mason.

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance


we are reminded that the soul is like a fractal of light of the original creator, but is also now our own peice/place in/of existence, the path to everlasting life goodness and power is the cultivation of a individuals god spark/soul.

So this is one that always makes me wonder. People recognize that we issue from source but then say we have to improve. I don't understand that. I realize that the fundamental position here requires us to be seperate from God (which we are not) but even then, are we to assume that we are imperfect reflections.

Do we really believe that God created an imperfect fractal image.

Do we believe in an omnipotent creator and if so, is such a thing possible? What would be the point?

ms

Originally posted by michaelsharp
most religions no longer dictate. I think most say "here is the truth, accept it if you want" which seems to be what freemasons would say.

No, it is most certainly an institution and the beliefs in the teachings are the cornerstone.

You still don't get it.
Freemasonry does not say "here is the Truth". It's up to the individual to find his own Truth. It is his Truth and his alone.
The same as any "belief in teachings". They are interpreted by the individual.

The things you talk of belong to the individual - they are his ideas and his beliefs. Religions tend to be organisations where beliefs are stated and shared by many. Not only does Freemasonry not dictate, but it doesn't even suggest to the individual what he should believe.

You seem to have a major problem with this religion issue. But with all due respect, there is no way that you can ever convince me that Freemasonry is a religion. Not only is the evidence overwhelming to the outsider (as you can see if you look around unbiasedly) but to the one who takes part in Freemasonry it is a statement that is annoying when repeated over and over again - because it is totally false.

www.masonicinfo.com...

Originally posted by michaelsharp

So this is one that always makes me wonder. People recognize that we issue from source but then say we have to improve. I don't understand that. I realize that the fundamental position here requires us to be seperate from God (which we are not) but even then, are we to assume that we are imperfect reflections.

Do we really believe that God created an imperfect fractal image.

Do we believe in an omnipotent creator and if so, is such a thing possible? What would be the point?

MS

I have been going through your posts , trying to get to the heart of what 'is' the quest that you are on.

I conclude that you are looking , like many others , for an instruction book , to find religion, a path to enlightenment. Nothing wrong in that, the truth is that it is a long and tormented path that you must travel , it is confusing and difficult path, where most of us stumble and strain. There are no shortcuts. Certainly Masonry does not offer any.

Freemasonry offers a blank sheet of paper, on which you can record those experiences , good and bad that will hinder you on this journey. How does it do this? well by giving you a safe haven, to alight in, while you search for THE TRUTH.

As Leveller pointed out to you , it is your Truth , you can not have mine or his , you have to forge your own. Faith by its own definition is a very personal thing, you either have it or you do not. You can not jump onto someone elses.

Freemasonry has some clearly defined objectives. Brotherly Love , Relief and Truth. If you live a life where you love your fellow creatures without question , You offer solace and support to others , without question , and you are always Truthful and Faithful. What more can anyone expect of you. You have reached a place where you can look in the mirror and be satisfied with what you see.

These three basic priciples when accepted in your heart, Mason or not, your travels are nearly over. Then if it is Gods will you find faith , your journey is complete.

If I have read this wrong then I apologise, but I don't usually.

Originally posted by michaelsharp

Originally posted by MysticOfRadiance


we are reminded that the soul is like a fractal of light of the original creator, but is also now our own peice/place in/of existence, the path to everlasting life goodness and power is the cultivation of a individuals god spark/soul.

So this is one that always makes me wonder. People recognize that we issue from source but then say we have to improve. I don't understand that. I realize that the fundamental position here requires us to be seperate from God (which we are not) but even then, are we to assume that we are imperfect reflections.

Do we really believe that God created an imperfect fractal image.

Do we believe in an omnipotent creator and if so, is such a thing possible? What would be the point?

ms

creation in itself is like a form of existence, so there is always a point to creation, within the reality of existence there also exists its opposite non-existence, and so it can be thought a knowledge of this is important.

in basic terms, good acts have a high frequency and bad acts have a low frequency, we need to have good frequency in-order to stay near the light of the god force.

those that go down a negative/evil path lower there frequency and fall from the light of existence and some even fall into non-existence.

perfection cannot exist as it indicates a state of stagnation, even the original creator wasnt perfect just very highly evolved.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by michaelsharp
most religions no longer dictate. I think most say "here is the truth, accept it if you want" which seems to be what freemasons would say.

No, it is most certainly an institution and the beliefs in the teachings are the cornerstone.

You still don't get it.
Freemasonry does not say "here is the Truth". It's up to the individual to find his own Truth. It is his Truth and his alone.
The same as any "belief in teachings". They are interpreted by the individual.

The things you talk of belong to the individual - they are his ideas and his beliefs. Religions tend to be organisations where beliefs are stated and shared by many. Not only does Freemasonry not dictate, but it doesn't even suggest to the individual what he should believe.

You seem to have a major problem with this religion issue. But with all due respect, there is no way that you can ever convince me that Freemasonry is a religion. Not only is the evidence overwhelming to the outsider (as you can see if you look around unbiasedly) but to the one who takes part in Freemasonry it is a statement that is annoying when repeated over and over again - because it is totally false.

www.masonicinfo.com...

I don't have a major problem with it and I have my answer here. You may not believe freemasonry is a religion, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. Not that that's a bad thing and frankly I don' t know why there is such internal resistance to the idea. Religions span a wide gamut from fundamentalist to open and unrestrictive. Some are against free thinking, some are all for it.

For me its just a definitional issue that all.

So what if Freemasonry is a religion?

so what?

what's the big deal? its got philosophy, its got ritual, its got institutionalized beliefs, its got religious texts. Its seems obvious that its a religion.

but what's wrong with that?

IMHO, not a darn thing.

Originally posted by michaelsharp


For me its just a definitional issue that all.

So what if Freemasonry is a religion?

so what?

what's the big deal? its got philosophy, its got ritual, its got institutionalized beliefs, its got religious texts. Its seems obvious that its a religion.

but what's wrong with that?

IMHO, not a darn thing.

I understand your point, but it seems unlikely that a fraternal organization could become an actual religion.

Freemasonry, however, has no "religious texts". The Bible is used in English speaking countries, but the Bible is not a Masonic document, nor does Masonry force its members to accept it if they have other beliefs.

It does indeed have philosophy and ritual, but I don't think this would qualify it as religion. Similarly, Boy Scouts of America requires its members to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being, and the organization has a philosophy and ritual, but it would seem to me to be stretching to label it a religion.

Freemasonry, instead of being a religion, welcomes men of all religions providing they are of good character and believe in God. To me this seems much more a thing of spirituality and morality than of religion.

Originally posted by billmcelligott

Originally posted by michaelsharp

So this is one that always makes me wonder. People recognize that we issue from source but then say we have to improve. I don't understand that. I realize that the fundamental position here requires us to be seperate from God (which we are not) but even then, are we to assume that we are imperfect reflections.

Do we really believe that God created an imperfect fractal image.

Do we believe in an omnipotent creator and if so, is such a thing possible? What would be the point?

MS

I have been going through your posts , trying to get to the heart of what 'is' the quest that you are on.

I conclude that you are looking , like many others , for an instruction book , to find religion, a path to enlightenment. Nothing wrong in that, the truth is that it is a long and tormented path that you must travel , it is confusing and difficult path, where most of us stumble and strain. There are no shortcuts. Certainly Masonry does not offer any.

Freemasonry offers a blank sheet of paper, on which you can record those experiences , good and bad that will hinder you on this journey. How does it do this? well by giving you a safe haven, to alight in, while you search for THE TRUTH.

As Leveller pointed out to you , it is your Truth , you can not have mine or his , you have to forge your own. Faith by its own definition is a very personal thing, you either have it or you do not. You can not jump onto someone elses.

Freemasonry has some clearly defined objectives. Brotherly Love , Relief and Truth. If you live a life where you love your fellow creatures without question , You offer solace and support to others , without question , and you are always Truthful and Faithful. What more can anyone expect of you. You have reached a place where you can look in the mirror and be satisfied with what you see.

These three basic priciples when accepted in your heart, Mason or not, your travels are nearly over. Then if it is Gods will you find faith , your journey is complete.

If I have read this wrong then I apologise, but I don't usually.

:-)

Hi Bill. Pleased to meet you.

I'm here for a couple reasons and enlightenment is not one of the. I would classify myself a full-fledged mystic. I have had connection experiences, experienced chakra and kundalini activation, and have discussed the nature of the universe with source. I have written several books on the nature of this earth, the nature of kundalini activation (with a special focus on overcoming fear) and I am now going through a process of writing a book on the nature of God and consciousness. I also have a competely revised Tarot system which summaries the truth as I understand it. I'm not saying this for any other reason that to point out that when I want to know spirituals truths, I tend to go within. Since I am a trained writers, I write what I learn down.

I tend to not trust written sources.

Now that said I am hear for two reasons. One, I like the discussion. Its not so easy to find places to discuss high philosophical topics and I am finding that this forum is opening up to that. And besides just pure intellectual fun, I am find this dicussion extremely useful for clarying my own understanding of things.

The second reason is I am interested in the deep conceptual uncurrents in the world's major secret orders. I have read several documents

www.luckymojo.com...
www.hermetic.com...

which suggest deep connections between the various orders and deep interference in the spirituality of humanity and I am just looking for traces of that in freemasonry.

Now here I am not accusing freemasonry of being a conspiracy. I'm just thinking that there have been some philosophical corruptions. If I'm right, I would end up arguing that their are philosophical corruptions in many if not most of the older religious/philosophical texts.

Neither am I trying to invalidate the teachings of freemasonry. From what I've read, there is a lot of truth and a lot of useful information. But I also think there are corruptions that do not represent universal truths. I find these corruptions in the philosophy of equlibrium, for example, which is a surprisingly ubiquitious position and can be found in systems of thining as wide as apart as Satanism and masonry.

hopefully this puts my particpation here in perspective. I have respect for freemasonry as I do all world religions. These organizations attract good people for good reasons.

and again, I would reiterate, the discussion is fun and I am, frankly, looking forward to getting into some deep philosophical debate in the near future.

namaste

ms

Cone of Silence Activated!!!!



But seriously. Did you see that?

Wow.

now that's power.

ms

Originally posted by michaelsharp

I'm here for a couple reasons and enlightenment is not one of them. I would classify myself a full-fledged mystic.

But seriously... I looked up the books you wrote and found your website.
www.michaelsharp.org...

I'd be willing to check them out. I tend to agree with Taoism more than what your talking about though. But I'll keep an open mind.

As far as the links you provided....
www.luckymojo.com...
www.hermetic.com...
You say there are corruptions in Freemasonry that do not represent Universal Truths. I would say much the same about Crowley's/OTO writings. There is some truth to be found, but take the whole with a grain of salt.

Crowley's a shmuck. OTO is a rip off and grossly twisted form of Golden Dawn and Masonry. Theodore Reuss, founder of OTO is a shmuck.

users.erols.com...

I use a copy of Liber Al Vel Legis (book of the law) to smash spiders at home.

I notice you have the symbol of the OTO on your website, which tells me you hold them and therefore Crowley's teachings in some regard. I hope this isn't where you get your high regard for yourself as a mystic.

Nothing against you as an individual, I feel for references you could do much better than Crowley, OTO, A.'.A.'., Thelema, etc.

I also bow to you

cotwom

[edit on 12/20/2004 by cotwom]