All systems fail ..

originally posted by: Expat888
Monarchies.. fail.. Communism.. fail.. Socialism.. fail .. Republics..fail.. democracies..fail .. capitolism.. fail.. religion .. fail.. governments.. fail.. leaders.. fail ..

Yet people blindly follow.. cling to.. fight and die over all these failed systems .. why ? what makes any of them worth following much less throwing ones life away for ?

All non-sustainable systems fail. If we had zero interest bank loans. If we had any -ism actually follow it's tenets to the letter they would not fail. Nature shows us what a self correcting system looks like, why we don't see it and emulate it is beyond me.

originally posted by: Expat888
Monarchies.. fail.. Communism.. fail.. Socialism.. fail .. Republics..fail.. democracies..fail .. capitolism.. fail.. religion .. fail.. governments.. fail.. leaders.. fail ..

Yet people blindly follow.. cling to.. fight and die over all these failed systems .. why ? what makes any of them worth following much less throwing ones life away for ?

All unsustainable systems fail. If we had zero interest bank loans. If we had any -ism actually follow it's tenets to the letter they would not fail. Nature shows us what a self correcting system looks like, why we don't see it and emulate it is beyond me.

a reply to: Velom

National Socialism in nazi Germany was one of (or the only) system that did not fail. It worked tremendously well.

By printing money to pay for its war machine, National Socialism destroyed a German economy that had been painstakingly rebuilt since the post-Versailles Inflation. It destroyed German society, first by tearing great rents in the social fabric through its oppression of minorities and political opponents, then by plunging the country into a war that razed its cities and industrial heartland to the ground. It destroyed German culture by driving scientists, artists and other major cultural figures abroad, and through political interference in the activities of those who remained. It sundered families, tore children from their parents and caused the deaths of literally millions of Germans.

If its object was the destruction of Germany, then yes, National Socialism worked tremendously well.

Its not the system itself that people are willing to fight and die for, its the idea that with enough support it can make things better for everyone. If it gets all the support the people have to offer and it still fails, then its time for a new system. No form of government will work without the support of the people except for tyranny. Ideally, if we all made a small sacrifice, no one would have to make the ultimate sacrifice. Unfortunately, when you have people in charge siphoning off the top and punching holes in the bottom, far too many sacrifices have to be made just to break even.

originally posted by: Expat888
Monarchies.. fail.. Communism.. fail.. Socialism.. fail .. Republics..fail.. democracies..fail .. capitolism.. fail.. religion .. fail.. governments.. fail.. leaders.. fail ..

Yet people blindly follow.. cling to.. fight and die over all these failed systems .. why ? what makes any of them worth following much less throwing ones life away for ?

I guess it depends on your definition of 'fail'. You make 'failure' sound like a bad thing, when it's often the catalyst for success.

A quote from "Smile at Fear: Awakening the True Heart of Bravery" by Chogyam Trungpa:

"Normally, trust means that we think that our world is trustworthy. We think that it's going to produce a good result success .

But in this case we're talking about having a continual relationship with the phenomenal world that is not based on either a good or a bad result. We unconditionally trust the phenomenal world to always give us a message, either success or failure. The fruition of our action will alwys provide us with information.

Such trust in the reservoir keeps us from being too arrogant or too timid."

Getting 'stuck' on a specific outcome or a specific answer or a specific idea doesn't allow for solutions - either personally or collectively nor does it allow for the flexibility and growth needed for productive life.

a reply to: Expat888
Oh ya! Its bound to happen, sure as the sun rises and sets.

In fact pretty much the only thing that has kept it all from crumbling years ago in our so called democracy we have wink wink.

Well its simply because you have to keep all of them going in circles so they never get a clear hold on the leash of power, that right there is why America is still up and running. So in a way ya! The system works, but not forever and even now the oligarchy is trying to figure out new ways to make things easier for themselfs, starting by removing the charade there forced to play and waste billions and billions of dollars on.

But the funny thing is the people are not trying to think up of new ways to make things easier for themself, so there in lies the problem. That being that those with the plans no matter how crappy and #ty those plans are, in fact you could have a room full of monkeys write them up and they will still be better and win out on the ones who do not look out for there own interests and make no plans or those who cede there free will to others simply because a guy in a suit on the TV said so.

The biggest con of the whole thing is to get people to believe that they are better at it then the so called people are. And believe gives strengths, and so people cede there free will to others with agendas. Its pretty much the roll of the dice on who you will get, but generally the stupider and greedier the easier to control, its what our democracy and that which we push around the globe is based on. And well, lets not forget that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And from there its all downhill, like a snowball.

In all everybody has gone crazy and forgot to factor in the human element into all these great ideas and isms they have, once you do that you will see that they are all a house of cards, just waiting for somebody to sneeze in its general direction.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Velom

National Socialism in nazi Germany was one of (or the only) system that did not fail. It worked tremendously well.

By printing money to pay for its war machine, National Socialism destroyed a German economy that had been painstakingly rebuilt since the post-Versailles Inflation.

You mean like this?

a reply to: Realtruth
Oh ya! I think we should make the retirement age lower and make it mandatory as well for our leaders, after all they can afford it. The dude is kind of getting a little senile there, I mean detached from everyday joe everyguy reality is to be expected. But we at least need to make the show at least semi believable. That's like dissolution on a whole new level there.

Just a thought ... Wasn't that why the founding fathers of America wrote, preached, warned, and acted the way they did ?

How george Washington left a set time to show that one person remaining in perpetual power is the same as a monarch (like senators today, although in the past senators were appointed by governors ) or why Thomas Jefferson said it's the duty of the people to revolt when the government becomes oppressive? Like someone mentioned above that elite groups form- it's like Jefferson saying there Needs to be a hard reset every so often to ensure the republic foes on. Or the constitution drafted by many to give the general public the right if not explicit duty to ensure that those documents are upheld. They knew that people become corrupt and the best way to prevent that is to set term limits explicit or implied. That way no one person would have too much power. Or checks and balances, etc.

I feel as if the founding fathers knew this would happen as they were all well studied in history. And those men who did provide civil service did have the nations best interest in mind. We've changed so much since then. And it probably is time for a reset. Much like the civil war peaceful or not but if nothing happens i can only imagine self implosion and fragmentation of America much like Rome where New powers take over the Land.

America Will be the original 13 colonies and west coast owned by China, south by Mexico, North by Europe and Alaska by Russia. Plus the peopLe who serve today are no better if not worse people than you and I. It's a shame how far we've fallen from the vision of the founding fathers

Population control isn't necessary, at least not from the top down. When one thinks of the world as overcrowded they might be reacting to the staggering total population number without a boots on the ground evaluation. Or perhaps they envision our densest cities and how vulnerable they are.

But the truth is, the dense cities are a problem but they don't occupy relatively all that much actual real estate when considering the uninhabited open spaces remaining.

We only need population control if we're going to continue living like we are. Unsustainably in dense concentrations.

If we operate in an energetic balance with our environment then we still have a lot of space to populate and the family size will self-regulate like it once did before modern agriculture ballooned it.

Interesting answers .. but missed the point .. or maybe I mistranslated with my rusty english ..

Why support failed .. corrupt systems ?
Why follow so-called "leaders" rather than thinking for yourselves .. being responsible for your actions .. showing compassion for those around you ?


Posted via drunken carrier pigeon from a unnamed pub ..

a reply to: Expat888

Hope keeps us going forward whilst debts and bills keep the flames on our asses.

In theory, failed systems should be part of a process towards more successful systems. Eventually, we'd have a system that works for most of the time and for most of the people with more equality.

In theory...spit...

In reality, I think we're heading into a new system that will have to fail too. We're headed into a world that'll have zero accountability for major nations and corporations. Massive wealth gaps. Two-tier legal systems where the super-wealthy don't care and the rest of us don't matter. Revolution is illegal!

It's not much to look forward to eh? Maybe 2-3 generations from now, people will learn to hold their leaders to account?

originally posted by: Expat888
Interesting answers .. but missed the point .. or maybe I mistranslated with my rusty english ..

Why support failed .. corrupt systems ?
Why follow so-called "leaders" rather than thinking for yourselves .. being responsible for your actions .. showing compassion for those around you ?

You don't support failed/corrupt systems, but to remove your support of a parasite or machine gone mad you have to actually remove what feeds it. What are the things that government actually governs in response to our refusal to do so ourselves? Is government not a colossal band-aid that organizes that which we have deemed ourselves incapable of organizing?

The inference of your post is this, imo: as close to full self-sufficiency as possible, community engagement, and appropriate technology is the appropriate extrapolation. It is the actual meat and sinew that attach to the skeleton of "thinking for yourself" or "being responsible for your actions".

This time is different than any other that came before it and we have a greater ability to organize and educate ourselves with the internet than we ever had. We can learn how to build our own roads and homes. We can learn how to create low-input systems for food abundance and we can home-school with the resulting free time on a model that respects our unique parental understanding of how our child thinks. We can learn to maintain our own internet even. The shuttle has already been jettisoned, now we have to discharge the heavy, external fuel tank that is massive unwieldy institutions and irresponsible, excessive use of high energy-potency oil.

originally posted by: Expat888
democracies..fail ..

Democracy is still not done yet. From the original idea of voting over issues in ancient Greek we are going to a system where people can just take a few hours to vote over topics over the internet. Currently the internet has the technological ability to facilitate such mass voting but no one has implemented it yet and it might take awhile. It might take decades and maybe I don't even get to see it in my lifetime but it is the future, not voting for one person and it's party to represent the people but yearly or monthly, maybe daily voting on all kinds of different subjects.

uote]originally posted by: Expat888
Monarchies.. fail.. Communism.. fail.. Socialism.. fail .. Republics..fail.. democracies..fail .. capitolism.. fail.. religion .. fail.. governments.. fail.. leaders.. fail ..

Yet people blindly follow.. cling to.. fight and die over all these failed systems .. why ? what makes any of them worth following much less throwing ones life away for ?

The system I live in (supposed democracy) fails for many reasons.

The small number of humans who represent the millions are flawed and corrupted by the same system.

In this increasingly complex and dynamic society we live in, we cannot expect the few to govern the many.

Current democracy is slow and chips away at problems.

If we all took responsibility to crowd source the problems of own countries we might get somewhere.

Technology can make this work. Complaining about it does nothing.

The problem isn't the system, whatever the system is. The problem is corruption. Any system works just fine if the people implementing it are honest and working for the em betterment of all. What we have is what has plagued every wealthy empire. Massive corruption always leads to incompetency (or at least the appearance of it) and then the eventual collapse.

a reply to: Expat888

Good PR helps.

Every election we hear the same thing; it's either 'it's time for a change' or 'we need a change' and if recent history has taught us anything it's that a the more things change the more they stay the same. It's no mystery why many nations have revolving door governments-whenever voters hear the word 'change' during a campaign they immediate think that it's a change for the better when in reality it's status quo.

No system of governance is perfect, but what other options do we have? until we develop shared consciousness then this is the best we'll get and we'll have to deal with it.

a reply to: Expat888

So much cause for depression and no solutions to offer? It's cool to be cynical and plenty of fun being jaded right? Means having to do nothing aside shaking our heads at everyone else.

The people running the systems cause them to fail. If I go out and work for fair pay and buy things for a fair price I'm happy. It's the guys wanting taxes, wanting to tell us what we can and can't buy who are failing us. People fighting wars over colors and beliefs. Telling us what to think and who to hate. Making us scared of other people who are just the same as us and want to live their lives without the bs.

If the day ever comes whan a world leader has had a decade of peace the system might just work. Screw it not even 10! Just 5 years of peace and it'd stand as a 21st century record. No not China! Occupying Tibet is not good. 5 years?

a reply to: Realtruth

No, not like that. Like this.

Replace "failed" with "sabotaged" and you just summed up the past thousand or so years of human history.