Islam or Jesus - Which one?!?!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

I happen to believe they are right - that will be all she wrote for them. The End. PFZZZZT! Lights out. No Pearly Gates, but no Lake of Fire and gnashing of teeth, either. Just endless nothingness, of which they cannot be aware, or be bothered by enduring, having ceased to exist.

But for the people that DO believe? They get the "Pearly Gates" and endless love?

Bah! I don't believe that at all. We are all here for our own personal journey. Not everyone has to have a spiritual experience to still be a spiritual being having a valuable physical experience, whether they understand it now or not.

See, here's the thing - what YOU believe, or what I believe will have no bearing on objective reality whatsoever. We're all going to hit it eventually, regardless, and whatever "it" is.

Whether the people who DO "believe" (everybody believes, in some way, but not necessarily in some thing), get "pearly gates and endless love" is immaterial to you - you don't believe, don't care, and don't want it. Why begrudge it to someone else? Is that any different than them begrudging you your endless life cycles or whatever it is you believe in?

Heck, I can't even preach an Atheist into hell according to my own beliefs, and can't figure out why agreeing with them on their infinity of nothingness would be offensive to them - any more than them insisting that I will be eternally nothing should offend me. What difference does it make, in the end? If they're right, I won't know anything about it, and if I'm right, they won't either - which, I guess, WOULD be a sort of left-handed confirmation for them, since they'd never know.

I'll tell you what. Every year, on Memorial Day, I go buy a beer and go off by myself. I drink half of that beer, and pour the other half out into the Fiddler's Green for the guys who never made it this far, in memorial - it's Memorial Day, right? SO, if I'm right, and I manage to somehow sneak in through those pearly gates, and then I notice you aren't there, I'll do the same for you. IF, on the other hand, I wind up as endless nothing, of course no beer will be poured. IF, on the OTHER hand, you are right and it's endless rebirths, then, since I've been a bad boy, I will doubtless reincarnate where there IS no beer - that would be me, in hell, right there. All I ask is that you pour out a beer for me, in whatever next life you wind up in. You're more enlightened in that case, and will no doubt be able to find a beer hall somewhere to do it.

Can I get an "AMEN!"?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

who would be the planner - who would have set the project in motion?

We are. We did.

In your view Humanity is a self-starting machine? We planned it first, and then we "were"? I'm not clear on how we could plan ourselves out before we existed, but then again, it's not my theology to have to hash out.

Isn't that sort of like the snake swallowing itself tail-first?

a reply to: nenothtu

See, here's the thing - what YOU believe, or what I believe will have no bearing on objective reality whatsoever.

But it does. There are good number of Christians who believe that there are two kinds of humans, those endowed with souls and those that aren't. That kind of superior attitude can lead to a lot of social woes.

And then there are the Calvinists, who believe everything is the way God intended it and everything is predestined, which leads to social apathy.

Can you give me an example of objective reality, or of objective good or bad?

a reply to: nenothtu

In your view Humanity is a self-starting machine? We planned it first, and then we "were"? I'm not clear on how we could plan ourselves out before we existed, but then again, it's not my theology to have to hash out.

Isn't that sort of like the snake swallowing itself tail-first?

Why build a house if not to live in it? Why create theme park if not to ride the rides?

PS: We are not humanity. We're bigger than that.

double post

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

See, here's the thing - what YOU believe, or what I believe will have no bearing on objective reality whatsoever.

But it does. There are good number of Christians who believe that there are two kinds of humans, those endowed with souls and those that aren't. That kind of superior attitude can lead to a lot of social woes.

That would be social woes, in a society, which you have already defined to be subjective, rather than objective. Therefore, what I said, "no effect on objective reality", still stands.

FWIW, I'm the sort who believes that those who think THEY can determine who does and does not have a "soul" ARE the ones without souls. Think about it.

And then there are the Calvinists, who believe everything is the way God intended it and everything is predestined, which leads to social apathy.

That's me (well, all except the whole "Jesus IS God" thing - nobody's perfect) - and you're right. I'm as socially apathetic as they come. I also believe that society will keep chugging right along after I'm dead and gone, and so I make no difference in the grand scheme of things, either. Neither subjectively NOR objectively.

On the flip side, I've not caught society being overly concerned for me, either, and it's all good.

Can you give me an example of objective reality, or of objective good or bad?

No, I can't. I'm not at an objective enough vantage point to make that determination. Whether there is a God or not, I'm not one of them.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

In your view Humanity is a self-starting machine? We planned it first, and then we "were"? I'm not clear on how we could plan ourselves out before we existed, but then again, it's not my theology to have to hash out.

Isn't that sort of like the snake swallowing itself tail-first?

Why build a house if not to live in it? Why create theme park if not to ride the rides?

I can't answer that. I've never built a house without a hammer and the materials to build it out of, and of course without myself to swing the hammer. In short, I've never encountered a self-building house, so I don't know what it would be used for if there was no one to build it.

PS: We are not humanity. We're bigger than that.

Humanity is bigger than humanity? Like Dr. Who's Tardis?

Or do you mean the individual human is more than the aggregate of their collective selves - i.e. "Humanity"?

a reply to: nenothtu

I can't answer that. I've never built a house without a hammer and the materials to build it out of, and of course without myself to swing the hammer. In short, I've never encountered a self-building house, so I don't know what it would be used for if there was no one to build it.

How about your mind? Who else could possibly be responsible for its creation, if not you?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

I can't answer that. I've never built a house without a hammer and the materials to build it out of, and of course without myself to swing the hammer. In short, I've never encountered a self-building house, so I don't know what it would be used for if there was no one to build it.

How about your mind? Who else could possibly be responsible for its creation, if not you?

My mind? You think I could somehow create my own mind? I have one sick, twisted sense of humor if I did this to myself! Nah - If I had made my own mind, I'd have made it a LOT smarter!

As to the "who else" - I have my answer, and I'm afraid you will have to find your own, as I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like mine!

a reply to: nenothtu

My mind? You think I could somehow create my own mind? I have one sick, twisted sense of humor if I did this to myself! Nah - If I had made my own mind, I'd have made it a LOT smarter!

So who is responsible for your, not so bright, sick and twisted mind, that you'd have made smarter? God?

Jesus or Islam? Bah why such a small choice.

Do what I did make your own God.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Jesus or Islam? Bah why such a small choice.

Do what I did make your own God.

I suspect that most people want that decision, like all decisions,made for them by someone else. For some, there's nothing more terrifying than options.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

My mind? You think I could somehow create my own mind? I have one sick, twisted sense of humor if I did this to myself! Nah - If I had made my own mind, I'd have made it a LOT smarter!

So who is responsible for your, not so bright, sick and twisted mind, that you'd have made smarter? God?

In my opinion, yes.

Your mileage obviously varies, as you would attribute it to someone or something else.

It stands to reason, though, that whatever it is would be something external to my self - I can't pick myself up by my own shoelaces, either, nor do I know of anything that can assemble itself with no externals. Even the solar system (and everything in it... and outside it, for that matter), scientifically speaking, sans any hint of a deity, did not assemble itself without external influences. There are no astronomical theories that I am aware of that state "the solar system just was". They keep reaching back, after earlier and earlier external influences, to a primordial "big bang", which magically, mystically "just was".

No easier to believe, in my opinion, than assembly by a deity. One instant, it's "not there", and the next instant, "it is". A mere trade-off of one hocus-pocus belief for another. It's only a matter of which hocus-pocus one chooses to believe in.

a reply to: nenothtu

Even the solar system (and everything in it... and outside it, for that matter), scientifically speaking, sans any hint of a deity, did not assemble itself without external influences. There are no astronomical theories that I am aware of that state "the solar system just was". They keep reaching back, after earlier and earlier external influences, to a primordial "big bang", which magically, mystically "just was".

I imagine grappling with taking responsibility for the design of the universe is a little overwhelming for someone who can't imagine that they created their own mind.

No easier to believe, in my opinion, than assembly by a deity.

Ease of believability? Is it easier to believe someone else created your mind, like a deity? To what end? What are YOU supposed to do with it? Or is it pre-programmed, like an operating system on a computer for the creator to use. (Calvinism)

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

I imagine grappling with taking responsibility for the design of the universe is a little overwhelming for someone who can't imagine that they created their own mind.

Well of course! YOU take responsibility for it - the universe isn't my fault. I wasn't even there when it popped into being! I was on the other side of town, picking up donuts. I had no idea what you all had gotten up to!

Ease of believability? Is it easier to believe someone else created your mind, like a deity?

Yup. If something was "created", it must have a creator - else it just popped into being, on it's own (and therefore was not created), and as I said before, I've never seen anything that can create itself.

To what end?

How would I know? I don't know why that guy created that giant steel thing in Paris, either. He failed to consult with me when me built it. I don't know if he meant it to be a giant lightning rod, an observation tower to watch for attacking albatrosses, or just a gizzy to hold a restaurant up off the ground and out of the dirt.

What are YOU supposed to do with it?

Use it? Think and reason with it, perhaps? My dear old dad used to tell me that if I had one, I'd probably try to take it out and play with it, but I personally think he was mistaken in that assumption - on both counts.

Or is it pre-programmed, like an operating system on a computer for the creator to use. (Calvinism)

Who told you that was Calvinism? They were mistaken, and had no understanding of Calvinism.

I honestly can't think of any use a creator (including myself, if that were the case) could put it to - it's pretty feeble, on the cosmic scale of things.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: nenothtu

Even the solar system (and everything in it... and outside it, for that matter), scientifically speaking, sans any hint of a deity, did not assemble itself without external influences. There are no astronomical theories that I am aware of that state "the solar system just was". They keep reaching back, after earlier and earlier external influences, to a primordial "big bang", which magically, mystically "just was".

I imagine grappling with taking responsibility for the design of the universe is a little overwhelming for someone who can't imagine that they created their own mind.

No easier to believe, in my opinion, than assembly by a deity.

Ease of believability? Is it easier to believe someone else created your mind, like a deity? To what end? What are YOU supposed to do with it? Or is it pre-programmed, like an operating system on a computer for the creator to use. (Calvinism)

Could you define what you mean by mind? In your opinion, is mind connected to the brain or independent of it? If it's the latter,where does it reside?

a reply to: Tangerine

You are the observer, your mind is the collective body of your observations. The mind is the house of mirrors we put together, as the observer, in an attempt to make sense of and affect our reality. I believe it is physically wired to the brain somehow and can possibly translate to the ego and id, as well as incorporate numerous symbolic archetypes.

In my opinion.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Tangerine

You are the observer, your mind is the collective body of your observations. The mind is the house of mirrors we put together, as the observer, in an attempt to make sense of and affect our reality. I believe it is physically wired to the brain somehow and can possibly translate to the ego and id, as well as incorporate numerous symbolic archetypes.

In my opinion.

Where are these observations stored?

a reply to: Tangerine

I'm a philosopher, not a neurologist!

Where do you think your memories, and then your evaluations of those memories are stored?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Tangerine

I'm a philosopher, not a neurologist!

Where do you think your memories, and then your evaluations of those memories are stored?

I tend to think that they exist independently of the brain "out there" somewhere. I base this on the fact that some people who have had entire sections of their brain where memory is supposed to be stored destroyed and can still, somehow, access those memories. in other words, I regard memories as part of consciousness and have a Jungian view of it. The brain may be needed to access it but isn't the storehouse.