Darren Wilson may be part of the Ku Klux Klan

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: crazyewok

There was no execution.


BROWN attacked a uniformed police officer. He was shot. No tears should be shed.

So?

That doesnt automacticaly justify lethal force.

A trained police officer should be capable of defending ones self against a unarmed attacker without useing lethal force.

A gun should be the last thing you go for not the first,

If brown had a gun or even a knife I woukd agree with you. But he didnt there I see overuse of force.

This is why I think the USA has a murder and mass shooting problem, lethal force always seems to be the first thing you jump to as a solution.

Lethal force should be a last resort not a quick solution!

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: crazyewok

I have been a vocal person on the simple fact that LEO are not trained in hand to hand combat.
This is driven by many things. The Politically Correct grand-standers and pacifists will scream when a LEO goes hands on with someone and the ending result is a bloody mess.
The liability for going hands on is greater as well.
Most LE agencies still work off the moronic idea of an affirmative action style of staffing.
In my AZ academy class, we had a female that was about 4" nothing, weighed about 200lbs and was there solely to fill a quota for hiring. She couldn't do a single pull up, couldn't scale a wall. And I even got into it with our class Sergeant because she was not able to pull ANYONE to safety during recovery drills.

And you are right.....most LEOs have no training in physical combat. I would say about 80%. The 20% left over are Veterans that got it in the military.

And we have the militarization of the LE world as well, working against people.

But, at the end of the day, Brown attacked a police officer. He was shot. That is usually what happens when you attack an officer, or anyone.

Don't want to be shot??? Don't attack people.

Well thats proves what im saying, the US has very poor calibre police officers and needs to completly overhall its training and recruitment standards.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: SM2

1) why was the police officer alone? He should have had a partner to back him up
2) are your police not trained to handle phyical attacks and defend themselfs with non lethal force?

Make all the dumb arse jokes you like about tea and crumpets it just makes you look like a fool and fails to awnser the queation and that is:

If police in the UK and other western country can restrain a violent but unarmed suspect without lethal force then why cant US cops?

Or are US cops just weak pussys?

In June 1980, hostage Gail Kinchin and her unborn baby were killed in crossfire between West Midlands officers and her boyfriend.

On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad

On 24 April 1995 James Brady, 21, was shot dead in an ambush by police officers acting on a tip-off. He and three friends were thought to be about to steal from a club in Westerhope village, near Newcastle. The torch he had been carrying was mistaken for a firearm

On 28 April 1995 A prisoner on day release, David Ewin, 38, was shot twice in the stomach by a police officer after he was spotted in a stolen sports car in Barnes, west London. He died in hospital three weeks later.

On 23 September 1996 Diarmuid O'Neill, 27, a suspected IRA terrorist was hit and killed by 10 bullets when officers raided his lodgings in Hammersmith, west London. An inquest ruled last year that the unarmed man was lawfully killed.

On 20 November 1996 David Howell, 40, a mental health patient, was shot dead by police marksmen when he ran amok with a knife in a Birmingham shop and took the manager hostage. An inquest jury later returned a verdict of lawful killing.

On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey

On 26 February 1998 Michael Fitzgerald, 32, was shot in the chest by police in Bedford after a two-hour stand-off. Neighbours had mistaken him for a burglar. It later emerged that he was in his own home and carrying a fake gun

On 10 April 1999 Devon and Cornwall police fatally shot Antony Kitts in Falmouth. He was reported to have threatened officers with what they thought was a sniper rifle. It turned out to be an air rifle. An inquest in 2000 returned a verdict of lawful killing.

n June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol.

On 22 September 1999 Harry Stanley, a painter and decorator, born in Bellshill near Glasgow, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind

On 24 September 2000 Kirk Davies, 30, died after being shot by a West Yorkshire police officer in Wakefield. He had an air rifle and had threatened a police officer earlier in the evening.

On 30 October 2000 Patrick O'Donnell, 19, was shot by a Metropolitan police officer after a siege at a house in Islington, north London, in which he took his mother and girlfriend hostage

On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a review of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that "the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them

On 30 April 2005, Azelle Rodney, from London, was shot dead by armed officers of the Metropolitan Police. In August 2007, coroner Andrew Walker, sitting at Hornsey North London, said that a full inquest into Rodney's death could not be held because of the large number of redactions in police officers' statements. In July 2013 a judicial inquiry found that the Authorised Firearms Officer who fired the fatal shots had "no lawful justification" for opening fire. The case was referred to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to determine whether a prosecution should be launched.

a reply to: crazyewok

Unarmed does not mean "Not lethal".

originally posted by: crazyewok


Well thats proves what im saying, the US has very poor calibre police officers and needs to completly overhall its training and recruitment standards.

I agree. But...................if you attack a LEO, or anyone, and you get shot....you have received something you deserved.

Don't attack people and you won't be shot.

a reply to: SM2


On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian national living in London, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting


In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate).[38] A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killin


On 4 August 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. Four officers are being investigated in the incident, although it was speculated "in leaks from official sources to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer [would] be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot

On 3 March 2012, Anthony Grainger was shot dead in Cheshire by an armed Greater Manchester Police officer whilst sitting in a stolen car. Grainger was unarmed at the time of the shooting. Chief Constable Peter Fahy was charged under health and safety legislation over the shooting



So, it seems the british police are no better trained in anything. So instead of claiming superiority, maybe you should do some reading and fact checking, there are plenty of cops shooting unarmed people in that list, one was shot in the back of the head 7 times for as it turns out, nothing. they admitted the mistake and issued an apology...alot of good a sorry does when you are dead. So, who looks like a fool?

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: crazyewok

So, please show me, or anyone show me, where it is written that a LEO should take the physical attack from someone.
How about this. Don't attack LEO if you don't want to be shot.

Im not saying a LEO does have to "take it"

But you do know there are more solutions than just "shooting". It may be the easiest but not the only.

Come to the UK and attack a British Policeman (unarmed of course), he/she certainly wont take it but instead of being shot you will end up with about 40,000 volts through you and a number of big bruises on you head and the prospect of a lengthy jail sentence for attacking a police officer

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: crazyewok

So, please show me, or anyone show me, where it is written that a LEO should take the physical attack from someone.
How about this. Don't attack LEO if you don't want to be shot.

Im not saying a LEO does have to "take it"

But you do know there are more solutions than just "shooting". It may be the easiest but not the only.

Come to the UK and attack a British Policeman (unarmed of course), he/she certainly wont take it but instead of being shot you will end up with about 40,000 volts through you and a number of big bruises on you head and the prospect of a lengthy jail sentence for attacking a police officer

unless you are carrying a recently repaired table leg in a plastic bag...then you get shot by british police.

a reply to: crazyewok

Yes, there times when not shooting can resolve the issue.

As a LEO, I would rather have ALL tools at my disposal, instead of just a stun gun.

Lets take the bad ones first shall we?

originally posted by: SM2

On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad

On 24 April 1995 James Brady, 21, was shot dead in an ambush by police officers acting on a tip-off. He and three friends were thought to be about to steal from a club in Westerhope village, near Newcastle. The torch he had been carrying was mistaken for a firearm

On 28 April 1995 A prisoner on day release, David Ewin, 38, was shot twice in the stomach by a police officer after he was spotted in a stolen sports car in Barnes, west London. He died in hospital three weeks later.
On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey

On 22 September 1999 Harry Stanley, a painter and decorator, born in Bellshill near Glasgow, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind

Terrible mistakes and wrongful use of force I agree. But look at the dates? This is a hand full over a DECADE! US get that number of cop screw up and wrongful shootings a month!

Lets look at others shall we?

originally posted by: SM2

In June 1980, hostage Gail Kinchin and her unborn baby were killed in crossfire between West Midlands officers and her boyfriend.

Crossfire. Notice weapons were being used here. So unrelated to ferguson in anyway.

originally posted by: SM2
On 23 September 1996 Diarmuid O'Neill, 27, a suspected IRA terrorist was hit and killed by 10 bullets when officers raided his lodgings in Hammersmith, west London. An inquest ruled last year that the unarmed man was lawfully killed.

This involves the IRA and terrorists in a pretty dark and dangerous time in Northern Island and the UK as a whole. Bad example to use.

originally posted by: SM2
On 20 November 1996 David Howell, 40, a mental health patient, was shot dead by police marksmen when he ran amok
with a knife in a Birmingham shop and took the manager hostage. An inquest jury later returned a verdict of lawful killing.

Notice he had a KNIFE! So he was armed again unrelated.

originally posted by: SM2
On 10 April 1999 Devon and Cornwall police fatally shot Antony Kitts in Falmouth. He was reported to have threatened officers with what they thought was a sniper rifle. It turned out to be an air rifle. An inquest in 2000 returned a verdict of lawful killing.

He threatened officers with a WEAPON! Doesn't matter it was fake they did not know. I say that was lawful.
Again unrelated to Ferguson.

originally posted by: SM2
n June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol.

Again same as the above. If you going to pretend you have a gun and threaten people you cant blame police from takeing it as a real threat can you?

originally posted by: SM2
On 24 September 2000 Kirk Davies, 30, died after being shot by a West Yorkshire police officer in Wakefield. He had an air rifle and had threatened a police officer earlier in the evening.

Again a dip# was trying to pass a fake weapon off as a real gun and threaten people. I would say lawfull killing.

originally posted by: SM2
On 30 October 2000 Patrick O'Donnell, 19, was shot by a Metropolitan police officer after a siege at a house in Islington, north London, in which he took his mother and girlfriend hostage

Notice the words "hostage" and Siege"

Its not likely a unfair assumption a WEAPON was involved and civilians life were in direct risk.

originally posted by: SM2
On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana.

Notice the words wielding a Katana.

Again weapon involved.

some yes were targic mistakes, some were wrong. But most of those involved WEAPONS.

And I think its piss poor practice you get a "applause" for spewing facts that mostly dont have relevance.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Lethal force should be a last resort not a quick solution!

And who says that the shooting was a 'quick solution' and not a last resort? IF .. and I stated IF ... an angry, 250 pound, 6 ft 6 dude is barreling down upon you with intent to inflict major bodily harm within seconds then self defense means shooting. Anything less would have been severely lacking and the result would be a dead cop and a live thug with street cred bragging rights. Of course that's IF the dead man was attacking, and we will find that out when the Grand Jury releases the information.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

Which is why US police procedures and training should be looked at.

Why did he not have a partner to back him up? With two of them they could have likely restrained brown.


Im looking at this not as blame the cop but blame US police training and procedures.

Darren Wilson was likely only following training and using what little support he had on him. If so, no its not his fault.

But Im asking WHY was it acceptable to put him in that situation with poor training and no back up?

I say Blame the police department not the man.

a reply to: FlyersFan

And the folks in St. Louis know that many of the citizens of that area are anti-white racists as well. We know people who live there and they state very clearly that white people are not welcome in parts of the city. Deep anti-white racism exists. The hate works both ways. Seriously folks. Didn't anyone learn from the Zimmerman trial? Just wait for the Grand Jury to release the FACTS. Speculation based on what is in the news and based on the propaganda put out by people with agendas is worthless. Just wait.

The one thing that we all know is that Wilson who claimed that he was in fear of his life exited his vehicle when Brown ran, then shot Brown at a distance. Make of that what you will, I did along with a lot of other people. It certainly doesn't seem that Wilson was in fear of his life.

I live in St. Louis and frequent the Ferguson area. There are people that are frightened by black people, I'm not. There are also areas in North St. Louis that I would not go to because it is dangerous, just like Chicago, Cleveland and every large city in this country.

For me I just expect more from the LEO that we are told to respect and obey. I have no issue with the regular citizen being racist, but a cop or any of his bosses.....really bad idea.

a reply to: crazyewok

Here's a novel idea....why not blame the criminal that attacked the officer? It was ultimately his fault that he was shot.

Had he not robbed the store. Had he not been involved with gang type activity (there are photos of him "throwing up gang signs" and dressed in "colors") had he not attempted to take the officers weapon, had he not charged the officer, had he not beat the officer? he would still be alive today smoking blunts, drinking 40's and what not.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

IF the facts come out that the policeman acted in self defense, will you accept it?

I don't really see what blaming the officer would accomplish anyway.

We need to look at beyond the individual here.
Everyone focusing on the wrong thing be it racism or who was at fault.


What should be looked at is the poor caliber of recruits, piss poor training ,over militarized equipment , bad operating procedures and poor support of US police as a whole.

a reply to: crazyewok

Common sense says blame the establishment, the poor training, and lack of good judgement. That is what we are doing here in the St. Louis area.

I doubt that it will be as bad as some would like it to be once the verdict is released, and I expect that Wilson will be indicted for at least a small infraction and summarily fired.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: macman

a reply to: crazyewok



So, please show me, or anyone show me, where it is written that a LEO should take the physical attack from someone.

How about this. Don't attack LEO if you don't want to be shot.

Im not saying a LEO does have to "take it"



But you do know there are more solutions than just "shooting". It may be the easiest but not the only.



Come to the UK and attack a British Policeman (unarmed of course), he/she certainly wont take it but instead of being shot you will end up with about 40,000 volts through you and a number of big bruises on you head and the prospect of a lengthy jail sentence for attacking a police officer

Tasers are not dependable:

"Police Use Taser On Stabbing Suspect But See ‘No Effect’"
denver.cbslocal.com...

"Police: Taser, pepper spray ‘no effect’ on drug suspect"
www.whio.com...

"Taser Had No Effect
Man charged with assault on a police officer"

easthamptonstar.com.../2013131/Taser-Had-No-Effect

originally posted by: SM2
a reply to: crazyewok

Here's a novel idea....why not blame the criminal that attacked the officer? It was ultimately his fault that he was shot.

A better idea is not to play the blame game and instead take a long hard look at police and social issue and see if such events can be better dealt with in the future?

a reply to: UnBreakable

Somethings no they dont work.

But did Darren Wilson try?

Is a SOP in place that specify there appropriate use?