A Simple Question for Christians

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Tangerine

Paul never claimed to have witnessed Jesus living. Apparently, you haven't read the Bible.

You do realize I said Paul never knew Jesus...

No, I asked you to cite contemporaneous sources (ie. someone who lived when Jesus allegedly lived who wrote that s/he witnessed Jesus living). You failed to do so.

Matthew-writer claims to be an eyewitness
John-writer claims to be an eyewitness
Luke-claims to record eyewitness testimony
Mark-claims to record eyewitness testimony
Paul-claims to have seen Resurrected Jesus

Now I have done what you asked. If you don't believe the authors of the document please give a historical reason for distrusting the documents? They are accurate to everything we know about history, and when history tries to tackle the Bible history always ends up biting its own tail. A couple of examples are King david and the Hittite culture.

I made no claims about Plato, Aristotle or Alexander the Great nor do I worship them.

Yea but I highly doubt you reject their existence like I have seen you do with Christ....

The Gospels were not written by the named authors. In fact, the books were not named until long after they were written. The Book of Mark was written, at the earliest, in 70. The Books of Matthew and Luke were written in the 80s or 90s. The Book of John was written in the 90s or 100s. As you can see, the books were not written until multiple generations after Jesus allegedly lived.

The Gospels are not accurate as to known history. For example, there is zero historical evidence that Jesus actually lived or was crucified by the Romans. "Lord of the Rings' was filmed in New Zealand. Does that prove that hobbits live(d) in New Zealand? There are stories about mythological figures set in real locations. Does that make those mythological figures real?

I have no reason to care whether Aristotle, Plato or Alexander the Great lived. No one is pounding on my door telling me about them and threatening me with eternal torture if I don't believe in them. Moreover, no one is attempting to turn my country into a Platocracy.

a reply to: jeramie

He said: "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

I think that Jesus just being there and saying those things, was in itself, one of "those things", so the "looking up" would have started then.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: jeramie

He said: "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

I think that Jesus just being there and saying those things, was in itself, one of "those things", so the "looking up" would have started then.

But there's no evidence that Jesus actually lived or said anything. Not one word was written about Jesus until multiple generations after he allegedly lived. Don't you Christians know that?

a reply to: Tangerine

Your dates are a bit off. Mark Luke and Matthew were all written before 70 AD John was the last Gosepl and it was finished around 94 AD. You realize if you want to throw out the NT you have to throw out pretty much everything you know about ancient history. No ancient document is anywhere nears as close to the event as the Gospels are to Jesus. Research the Gap between the Gospels and Christ and you'll find your answers.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus says that wars and rumors of wars are supposed to take place before his second coming, this means that war is part of God's great work and that the end (second coming) will not come until wars have been fought and blood has been spilled.

Great questions….Starred + Flagged

I personally believe those aspects of a warring/destroying God, were woven/added onto Jesus original words, because they (the Pharisees and the Sadducees) were trying to reconcile the prophesies (many of which Jesus fulfilled IMO) which also included an all conquering warring Messiah.

Jesus fulfilled some of the OT Messianic prophecies, but he didn’t (appear) to fulfill all of the warring Messiah ones…So because men were confused about those aspects of scripture not being fulfilled; The idea of Jesus returning to later be the all conquering “2nd Coming” Messiah, and complete those warring prophecies, was interwoven/added into the texts by men IMO…

As for the “war being a part of God’s great work”…there is a clear dichotomy
going on, in regards to different verses/words (apparently) spoken by Jesus…

For example…

Luke 17: 28-32
. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife.

Compared too…

Luke 9:51-56
51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.

I’m pretty sure that Jesus is stating that “they do not know Spirit they are of” because he’s pointing out that the disciples intentions of reigning down fire on people, has nothing to do with God whatsoever.

And yet, apparently it’s going to be just like that in the Luke 17 verse, when the “Son of Man” returns…I personally DONT think so, unless Jesus is coming back to rescue us, from the Anti Christ…But unfortunately, that is not how Jesus is being depicted in those, and other verses.

And in stark contrast to this warring Messiah figure, and a later end times judgment, ushering in the Kingdom of God… we have the following verses…

John 12:30-32
30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Luke: 17:20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Clearly a mixed message taking place there, in regards to the Kingdom of God and when judgment is taking place, in comparison to other verses etc…

It’s the Holy Spirit which comes like a thief in the night, and it’s the Holy Spirit which convicts/judges a person, and leads them into the Kingdom of God…IMO

Jesus has already convicted the World, and people are saved through his message. There’s simply no need, for Jesus to come back and go completely against his own character, by killing and destroying everything, just to save an elect/select few.

Especially when Jesus message and “justice system” (the real one, not people being destroyed in Hell etc), is already perfectly set up, and deals with people on an individual spiritual basis IMO…



It just like Jesus predicted, in that the Truth would be mixed with lies…

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Field = The Word of God (written texts)

The Wheat = Truth… Which comes from the Spirit of God

The Weeds = Lies… Which comes from mans fleshy understandings…



- JC

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus says that wars and rumors of wars are supposed to take place before his second coming,

Negative, you are guilty of twisting the words of Christ.
He said, " There will be wars and rumors of wars".
Not there must be wars and bloodshed before I return.
So try to stick closer to reality and avoid psychopathic
manipulation of the world you only share with the rest of us.

this means that war is part of God's great work

And you just pulled that right out of your ass?

and that the end (second coming) will not come until wars have been fought and blood has been spilled.

You're choosing to paint this as a condition when it's really just a fact.

Total thread fail.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If you are a Christian then death has not much meaning for you, regardless of how it happens. I am for God's plan, whatever that is. I am in favor of Christs return.

a reply to: randyvs

Yet since he said it will happen then it must. Prophecy can't be broken can it? If not then his word will stand the test of time, meaning it "must" happen otherwise prophecy was not fulfilled. As we all know, all biblical prophecy will take place, at least from the Christian perspective.

Is Jesus' second coming part of God's plan? If so then so is war because Jesus says it will happen before he comes, not after.

Could you possibly answer the question? If you had the choice to end all war tomorrow at the expense of Jesus returning, would you?

a reply to: Joecroft

Thanks for the input brother, I totally agree with everything you said.

In my opinion this "second coming" Jesus speaks of is our own when we die and are reborn. Does anyone know the day they will die? No, only the Father knows. Will every eye see this event? Yes, we are all reborn so we will all experience it, in fact we have already experienced it when we transitioned from our last life to this one.

When Jesus spoke of himself he was speaking about what's within all of us already, we just have to first find it then realize it.

a reply to: Iamschist

I wasn't talking about Christians saving themselves from death, more along the lines of saving others who do not share the same faith if any at all.

Would you delay or stop Jesus' return if it meant the end of suffering for millions brought on by worldwide war? If not, I'd have to say that's extremely selfish, no offense to you.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No offense taken. Christians die. Death happens to all of us. Christians understand that death is not the end.

Christ coming or not coming has nothing to do with war. Christ said what he did from an understanding of mankind. We are the ones who war.

Christians cannot save anyone. That is the job of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Suffering can serve many purposes in a person's life. It would seem we are not much for learning or growing when everything is peachy.

To desire Christ's coming is to hope for peace, as he will institute 1000 years of peace.

a reply to: Iamschist

Christ will set up peace, but for whom? If a muslim dies a horrible death from no fault of his own, then he never knew peace. The same goes for anyone outside of the Christian faith who is killed by war, they will not know peace because they died before the party (second coming) started and weren't invited anyways because they were raised in a non-Christian culture.

To not take the option I presented here shows a "me before them" mentality. Jesus taught us to have the opposite in mind, serve others not yourself. If someone chooses not to end war because THEY want Jesus to return to set up peace for THEM, that is looking out for themselves and not others.

This is a "what if" situation, not a question of whether such a thing is possible or not. This also isn't directed at you personally, I'm just sharing my opinion on the matter.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Could you possibly answer the question? If you had the choice to end all war tomorrow at the expense of Jesus returning, would you?

I will answer your question.
But Jesus second coming is needed as a result of the wars and other sinage that
he knew would come. And anyone knows that wars and rumors of war will come.
That's not exactly a prediction that calls for deep thought or meditation. You are
asking first of all, that if the impossible were possible, which it never will be
without the Prince of Peace. But if the impossible, were possible? And I could
stop all wars negate the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ? I would not!
Because I'm sure my prayers would be heard by our Heavenly Father and that
would be the point of his return anyway. Seeing that I myself am faithful and
true to Gods word, no matter how heavily it involves me. God would see my
predicament and everything would fall in to place anyway. So you see?

If I could only be so honored?

And if only you spent as much time accepting
Gods word. As you do looking for holes that
amount to silly questions?

a reply to: randyvs

Thanks for your answer brother.

I spend a lot of time studying the bible, the holes reveal themselves naturally when reading from a non-biased viewpoint. There are a lot of good things in the bible that shouldn't be ignored, but there is also a lot of bad that shouldn't be ignored either.

There is no evidence outside of the bible that suggests the bible is the inerrant word of God. The same goes for any holy book, they are all their own witnesses naturally being biased on the information they present.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Well you have done better l1ght, i'll admit that.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
To not take the option I presented here shows a "me before them" mentality. Jesus taught us to have the opposite in mind, serve others not yourself. If someone chooses not to end war because THEY want Jesus to return to set up peace for THEM, that is looking out for themselves and not others.

Well said brother…

In regards to your discussion; The “Death happens to all of us” argument/perspective, as an excuse for God to destroy people, doesn’t really hold up IMO…because it’s really about everyone living out a life, and having a chance in their own lifetime, to find Jesus/truth and receive the Holy Spirit. In other words, you can’t have one rule for those who lived in the past, and another, for those living in the “End Times”…that just wouldn’t be fair.

Jesus promises those who come to believe in him, that they will receive the Holy Spirit. Having a life cut short, by God destroying those who don’t know Jesus yet, goes completely against the Spirit of Life and God IMO, and is completely unfair on people who haven't had the chance to live out there lives fully, before they’re able to find truth/Jesus…this is just plain wrong…even by normal Christian doctrinal standards…

Of course, the Harvest that Jesus spoke of, was an inner teaching IMO…which takes place within a persons spirit, when they come into the truth and destroy the Lies within themselves…The Kingdom of God is within, so Jesus even sets the scene in that verse, (Matthew 13:24-30) as to where those things take place; which is within us…

Most people just can’t see the weeds that have infected the Word of God…because they’re stuck in a carnal fleshy mind-set (which is how those aspects found their way into the NT, in the first place), instead of being led by the Spirit…And even those who have found the Spirit, are still sucked into believing in the lies/Weeds…Whereby they are living in a world of two polar opposites, and thinking that they’ve found “THE Truth”…

And your right, Christ teaches us to serve others. It was only when I learned to let go of my fear, of what God was going to do to me….i.e. Hell and End times destruction etc…; that I was able to get closer to God/Jesus real truth.

It was only when I started to think about the greater whole, and how Jesus and God’s justice, as outlined within standard Christianity, would affect everyone else; only then was I was able to get closer to real truth. Only then, was I able I see the real beauty and love in Jesus message. And how parts of that truth, had become corrupted, because of mans fears, and incorrect understandings about Gods character, which was passed down throughout the OT…although some prophets showed glimpses of what the real character of God, is truly all about…IMO

All the clues are out there, if people would just ask themselves the right questions (seek the truth) and look towards the fruits of Jesus teachings and how those things match up collectively, in comparison to various Christian doctrines etc...

It’s like when you go weight training; you can give people advice about how much they should be lifting and the proper techniques to use etc…but you can’t lift the weights for them; that’s something they must do on their own…

And it’s the same with people searching for truth, because although you can give them advice and point things out etc…they still have to search for those truths and go on their own individual journey of discovery, so that they can know and understand it for themselves.

Sorry for rambling on…I think I’ll leave it there for now…


- JC