Thoughts on Organized Religion

a reply to: 74joff

Religion is not completely about what one believes in the metaphysical question of "Ontology". So in what you predict happening you have forgotten it seems that Religion serves a far more practical purpose of being a moral guide, a charity and community glue for many places and people.

I believe you are quite right, and this is exactly why religion will never die.

The attempt to do away with it has already been made, not once but in many different times and places. Just off the top of my head, I can think of the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and of course Ataturk's revolution in Turkey. In each of these cases the successful revolutionaries tried to do away with religion, only to find that it would not wither away as they intended. In the end they had to come to an accommodation with it in order to avoid unending opposition and bloodshed. The OP, it seems, has learnt no lessons from history.

Even Richard Dawkins, a man who has spent a lot of time and effort to promote atheism and bring about the dying-away of religious faith, admits that faith is a human universal and that the religious impulse is probably natural to us. In various books and essays, he has speculated on how and why such an impulse could have evolved. None of his explanations to date seem particularly convincing. Nature is what the OP is up against, although he or she does not appear to realize it.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: 74joff

Religion is not completely about what one believes in the metaphysical question of "Ontology". So in what you predict happening you have forgotten it seems that Religion serves a far more practical purpose of being a moral guide, a charity and community glue for many places and people.

I believe you are quite right, and this is exactly why religion will never die.

The attempt to do away with it has already been made, not once but in many different times and places. Just off the top of my head, I can think of the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and of course Ataturk's revolution in Turkey. In each of these cases the successful revolutionaries tried to do away with religion, only to find that it would not wither away as they intended. In the end they had to come to an accommodation with it in order to avoid unending opposition and bloodshed. The OP, it seems, has learnt no lessons from history.

Even Richard Dawkins, a man who has spent a lot of time and effort to promote atheism and bring about the dying-away of religious faith, admits that faith is a human universal and that the religious impulse is probably natural to us. In various books and essays, he has speculated on how and why such an impulse could have evolved. None of his explanations to date seem particularly convincing. Nature is what the OP is up against, although he or she does not appear to realize it.

Faith (ie. belief) and religion are not the same things. Religion is the performance of ritual on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or deities.

Not only do people have an inherent need to formulate beliefs about the unknown, people seem to have an inherent need for ritual.

That which may eventually be accomplished is the stripping of religions of much of their legal and political power. Of course, even that will probably be cyclical.

a reply to: Tangerine

Faith (ie. belief) and religion are not the same things. Religion is the performance of ritual on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or deities.

True. In fact, Dawkins's position, as expressed in The God Delusion and elsewhere, is that religious belief is an evolved characteristic of Homo Sapiens. I used the word 'faith' because 'religious belief' is a bit of a mouthful, but Dawkins certainly includes ritual acts as part of the picture.

Not only do people have an inherent need to formulate beliefs about the unknown, people seem to have an inherent need for ritual.

Yes, apparently. This is exactly what Dawkins says. However, he proposes that the instinct — the 'need' — does not have selective value in and of itself but is the by-product of another trait, such as the tendency to unquestioningly accept parental authority in infancy — that does have selective value.

That which may eventually be accomplished is the stripping of religions of much of their legal and political power.

It's been tried many times before. The only successful examples I can think of are in Europe, where the Roman Catholic Church has been forced to concede most of its political power. In the UK, the Church of England has long been subordinate to Parliament. But the battles have been long — centuries long — and hard-fought. Religion never dies easily. Read about the French Revolution, the suppression of the French Church, the Terror, and the return of Catholicism following Napoleon's concordat with the Pope. Quite a story.

a reply to: Astyanax

I wish I could be here to see how things turn out

You know, in the future - when we've worked out all those kinks

Nirvana sounds kinda boring - but what do I know?

:-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I don't believe we ever will 'work out all the kinks'.

Human nature is a hydra-headed beast. Lop one of its heads off, and two more appear, fanged and spitting venom.

This, by the way, is a good thing.

Tangerine:

Faith (ie. belief) and religion are not the same things. Religion is the performance of ritual on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or deities.

Astyanax:

True. In fact, Dawkins's position, as expressed in The God Delusion and elsewhere, is that religious belief is an evolved characteristic of Homo Sapiens. I used the word 'faith' because 'religious belief' is a bit of a mouthful, but Dawkins certainly includes ritual acts as part of the picture.

The thread poster has yet to clear up this major VERY important point!! Hopefully he will do so very soon still waiting!

:?

a reply to: Astyanax

I disagree. You offer chaos. Declined.

Thanks.

a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

a reply to: Not Authorized

I agree with Astyanax. The only way to "work out all the kinks" so to say, is homogenize everyone. But that is juts boring. Might as well become a hive mentality, since we all agree with each other all the time.

With no kinks, who will we rely on to tell us that we are wrong? After all, it is outside viewers that can dispel faulty beliefs the best.

a reply to: Astyanax

You'll be waiting forever. I seem to recall your entire premise of posting here was the right to ignorance. I'm observing and respecting your self claimed right. You can remain ignorant of my beliefs.

You didn't honor my opinion first, so in your eyes, it doesn't matter what I meant or think. It still doesn't matter to you. Therefore, I am under no obligation to share it with you.

Shrug. Have a great day!

With love,

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Good Lord. People are unique individuals. Kinks like that, will never be worked out like that, and shouldn't be. They are not even kinks. It is part of being human. If that was the case, I'd be up in arms too. If I wanted that, I would have posted a sci-fi idea promoting the Borg collective as the future of humanity.

I'm talking flat earth like beliefs being recognized via education. Not giving everyone a pill to make them all the same. Humanity made religion. Religion doesn't make humanity.

Example, humanities religions, even if false, should be recognized for past accomplishments. Arts, sciences, etc. It doesn't mean to continue them on in perpetuity.

That is it. No more, no less. The rest is overreaction.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

a reply to: Not Authorized

So where do you draw the line then with the kinks? What makes humans great is their uniqueness. The ability to be wrong. When you start taking that away, eventually everyone just starts thinking the same. I don't really like religion, but maybe it's a good foil to keep us human. Food for thought.

a reply to: Not Authorized

You'll be waiting forever (for my explanation of 'collapsing probability waves').

To be honest, I expected this from the outset. It was rather obvious that you would not be able to explain what you meant.

You can remain ignorant of my beliefs.

Your beliefs? I asked you for a definition of your terms, that's all.

I seem to recall your entire premise of posting here was the right to ignorance.

Say, rather, the right to hold opinions — about things that are matters of opinion. The definition of 'collapsing probability waves' is not one of them. Wavefunction collapse However, I respect your right to remain silent in order to avoid an embarrassing confession of ignorance.

You didn't honor my opinion first

Ah. You mean I disagreed with it.

In your eyes, it doesn't matter what I meant or think.

Then why am I still responding to your posts?

I am under no obligation to share it with you.

None at all. You are not obliged to defend your position, or to counter the points I have brought up against it.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
Greetings,

I am looking for a bit of advice from our agnostic and atheist members. Recently, I've been thinking about the generalized acceptance of humanities organized religions. I'm finding myself seriously wondering if society as a whole, can continue to accept how we currently handle them and, well, survive.

Basically, I've recognized the very dark disconnect with reality said organizations can bring.

And before anyone freaks out, I'm not saying to ban books, human spirituality, or, anything about said quest. Nor, start closing down churches. Far from it.

What I mean is, it must be admitted by casual observers, that some organized religions have, and, are far more destructive to society, education, science, rights, etc, than others. Rather, it seems that fiction presented as unchallenged fact, without a reasonable chance to offer retort, is perpetuating Roman Era mythology. Not just in my nation, but others too.

How do we solve this, moving forward, without infringing on their rights as outlined in a secular society? Note I said secular, not divine right my religion is better than yours based. Should like minded individuals start to discuss using the education system more directly to remedy this? Perhaps a curriculum formed and focused on true history vs claimed and religiously biased and fabricated history? To give our youth knowledge, and, education to use against said claims? Or, do we wait for the millennials to reach critical mass to change the spirit of the age using sheer numbers?

How about supporting education through media? Sort of like Star Trek TNG writers did with the number 42? Simply just written in, without fanfare? What about using Dan Brown's novels, and, over reaction against them, as a template? He seems to have touched a tender spot. Imagine focusing on scripture breaking errors, and not Gnostic texts.

Any thoughts and ideas on how to reach a modern secular society? Simply just saturate the masses with truth until proof of said claims is demanded on a wide scale, rather than silently accepting the geocentric model of the universe is still true?

Thanks for your time.

What fiction presented as unchallenged fact? What do you mean by "....without a reasonable chance to offer retort"?

What are people being told about Roman era mythology, that's wrong?

What truth could you saturate the masses with? Why not give us your version of truth in your very own thread.

If you had your pure secular society who would you argue with about God?

People are hearing every side to the question about God. That's more true today than it ever has. People are choosing religion, atheism, and whatever.

I've only lived in America and I did a year in Korea, in the Army. Both places you can choose to believe in God, or not, in almost anyway you want to.

As a human being I have a right to believe in whatever I want. I would like that to be honored in the society I live in. This is true, even if you hate God.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Money, country, economy, the state, monarchy, credit, number—humans are the only species that believes in things that do not exist outside their own skulls. This tendency exists in all facets of human life, and is ineradicable, no matter what abstraction, universal, or symbol they value more than real beings.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Money, country, economy, the state, monarchy, credit, number—humans are the only species that believes in things that do not exist outside their own skulls. This tendency exists in all facets of human life, and is ineradicable, no matter what abstraction, universal, or symbol they value more than real beings.

While it's true that humans believe in things that exist outside our heads, we can not be certain that non-human animals don't believe in things that exist outside their heads.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted yt?by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Oh a fundamentalist Christian isn't just a "born again" Christian? Ok, because "born again" describes what a Christian is.