Thoughts on Organized Religion

a reply to: addygrace

>rubs hands, settles back<

Ah, this is going to be good. We haven't had any argumentative believers up on this thread yet. I mean 'argumentative' in the best possible way, of course.

Let the revels begin.

a reply to: Tangerine

I never said animals don't believe in things that exist outside their head. My assertion is that humans are the only species that believe in things that do not exist. Also, I am quite certain of this, proving that we can be certain about such matters.

If you put 100 chimps who do not know each other in a room, you will see zero cooperation. Do the same with humans who do not know each other, they are relatively more likely to cooperate. We can communicate goals, plans, decisions, ideas, we can talk about the future, our prospects and hopes and cooperate to meet those ends. None of these exist outside the human imagination.

We can get people who are strangers to cooperate by believing a single story—whether it be the value of money, that one must follow laws, one must pray to God etc. Monkeys, ants, wolves don't do that.

No personal God needs to be worshiped for us to live in awe at the beauty and immensity of nature and the universe. No personal GOD needs to be worshiped to discover how things work in nature and use this understanding to make our lives easier, longer and fuller. No religion or belief is needed to teach us to treat each other with love and respect because that is the way we want to be treated. No religion or personal GOD is needed to teach us that together we can overcome the challenges of the universe by the sharing of true knowledge and by eliminating ranting superstitions.
With the accessibility of WMA’s, including nuclear and biological weapons by religious groups and countries we can no longer ignore that such beliefs do not pose a threat to our continued survival.
The days of religion should certainly be numbered or the risk of future civilization itself would seem to depend on how soon we all come to realize this.

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted yt?by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Oh a fundamentalist Christian isn't just a "born again" Christian? Ok, because "born again" describes what a Christian is.

Either you're a "born again" fundamentalist who considers only "born agains" to be Christians or you have reading comprehension problems. Anyone who self-describes themselves as a Christian, fundamentalist or not, "born again" or not, and who believes in the Abrahamic God and believes that Jesus died for his/her sins is a Christian.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Tangerine

I never said animals don't believe in things that exist outside their head. My assertion is that humans are the only species that believe in things that do not exist. Also, I am quite certain of this, proving that we can be certain about such matters.

If you put 100 chimps who do not know each other in a room, you will see zero cooperation. Do the same with humans who do not know each other, they are relatively more likely to cooperate. We can communicate goals, plans, decisions, ideas, we can talk about the future, our prospects and hopes and cooperate to meet those ends. None of these exist outside the human imagination.

We can get people who are strangers to cooperate by believing a single story—whether it be the value of money, that one must follow laws, one must pray to God etc. Monkeys, ants, wolves don't do that.

Actually, animals who are strangers to each other but placed together often do learn to cooperate. Have you ever been to a zoo? Have you ever observed a pack of family dogs comprised of individuals initially unknown to each other? Wolves clearly communicate goals, plans, etc. when they hunt. Each plays a distinctive role and they cooperate to accomplish an agreed upon goal. Dogs can anticipate human behavior better than humans can. Have you ever wondered how your dog knows you're going to the refrigerator or going for a walk before you've moved a muscle to do so? You might be interested in modern research on animal behavior.

a reply to: Tangerine

Actually, animals who are strangers to each other but placed together often do learn to cooperate. Have you ever been to a zoo? Have you ever observed a pack of family dogs comprised of individuals initially unknown to each other? Wolves clearly communicate goals, plans, etc. when they hunt. Each plays a distinctive role and they cooperate to accomplish an agreed upon goal. Dogs can anticipate human behavior better than humans can. Have you ever wondered how your dog knows you're going to the refrigerator or going for a walk before you've moved a muscle to do so? You might be interested in modern research on animal behavior.

I’m very interested in animal behavior.

If you think a dog knows when you’re going to a refrigerator before you move a muscle, I have to wonder what modern research on animal behavior you are referring to. I definitely would be interested to read it.

Determining social hierarchy in packs of animals is not a rational discussion and agreement involving goals and planning, such as in politics, but an environmental and evolutionary necessity. This hierarchy is determined through displays of physical superiority by way of dominance and cooperative breeding etc., not through the communication of ideas. Sure they may share common goals insofar as they all wish to breed and eat food, but once again, that is a biological necessity, not the result of communication.

I wager all wolves need to know when hunting is the location of the prey and the other wolves of the pack. They learned how to hunt through growing up with other wolves, not through the discussion of ideas and agreeing to certain plans. Though they communicate with body language, scent and various sounds, these sounds indicate realities, not fictions.

What zoos have you been to that the animals are cooperating with each other?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted yt?by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Oh a fundamentalist Christian isn't just a "born again" Christian? Ok, because "born again" describes what a Christian is.

Either you're a "born again" fundamentalist who considers only "born agains" to be Christians or you have reading comprehension problems. Anyone who self-describes themselves as a Christian, fundamentalist or not, "born again" or not, and who believes in the Abrahamic God and believes that Jesus died for his/her sins is a Christian.

Just to clarify, you can not be Christian and not be "born again". So if that's a fundamentalist Christian, then I don't believe you when you say the fundamentalist Christians you know have lost there ability to critically think. It just sounds like you dislike Christians, just as the OP, and somehow Christians need to be silenced so society can survive. It's crazy arrogance like this that trample people's rights.

a reply to: addygrace

I've often wondered what it means to be 'born again'. I know what a certain set of Christians say it means, but there seems to be a lot of controversy on the subject and the rest of John 3 isn't much help in resolving it. The passage could very easily be read — and, indeed, this is the historical, conventional reading — as stating simply that one needs to undergo the ritual of baptism in order to be accepted as a Christian.

Though not religious myself, I'm increasingly inclined to regard religion as somehow indispensable. The people seems to need its opium.

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted yt?by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Oh a fundamentalist Christian isn't just a "born again" Christian? Ok, because "born again" describes what a Christian is.

Either you're a "born again" fundamentalist who considers only "born agains" to be Christians or you have reading comprehension problems. Anyone who self-describes themselves as a Christian, fundamentalist or not, "born again" or not, and who believes in the Abrahamic God and believes that Jesus died for his/her sins is a Christian.

Just to clarify, you can not be Christian and not be "born again". So if that's a fundamentalist Christian, then I don't believe you when you say the fundamentalist Christians you know have lost there ability to critically think. It just sounds like you dislike Christians, just as the OP, and somehow Christians need to be silenced so society can survive. It's crazy arrogance like this that trample people's rights.

If I intended to silence you, I wouldn't be posting to you expecting a response, would I? For your information, most Christians don't buy that "born again" stuff. What does my claim have to do with whether or not fundamentalist Christians can reason critically? What do you mean by reason critically?

a reply to: Astyanax

I'm not convinced. Looks like it allows 1984 scenarios. That whole ignorance is strength thing.



We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Lol.

a reply to: addygrace

I agree with this. See, some this thread are steering it into Organized Religion = God. Very doubtful if you ask me. Even a vehement defender of Organized Religion in this very thread, pointed out God hates religion (yet his is OK). Weird huh?

It's ironic if you ask me.

As far as what I meant, mythology is mythology. I can claim the sky is purple, but, if you look up and it is blue, does that make me a liar? If I cannot tell you the truth of things on Earth you could check for yourself, why would you listen to any other spiritual ‘truths‘ I could give you?

I would say, little to none would be believable. That whole being skeptical mindset.

Your mileage my vary.

Thank you for your post.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

If someone comes to you, and tells you they know God. Their book tells them so. To proselytize you, they tell you all about prophecy and how it is error free. Etc, etc.

The problem is, you are a history major. You know this claim is not true.

Should you tell the person they are in error? Should you use modern standards to help ameliorate the misinformation? What about ignoring them, and just informing others instead?

a reply to: Astyanax

Uh huh.

The playbook is really recognizable. You followed it very well. But, see, you made a mistake. Others that go googling will see it too.

This is all quite amusing. Please, continue preaching the good news of 1984. I for one will celebrate humanity coming together, and landing on a comet instead.

With love,

originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: Krazysh0t

If someone comes to you, and tells you they know God. Their book tells them so. To proselytize you, they tell you all about prophecy and how it is error free. Etc, etc.

The problem is, you are a history major. You know this claim is not true.

Should you tell the person they are in error? Should you use modern standards to help ameliorate the misinformation? What about ignoring them, and just informing others instead?

You didn't ask me but if someone is proselytizing (ie. trying to convert you), of course you should challenge their false claims. They're proselytizing to you in the modern world, aren't they? They didn't ignore you, so why should you ignore them? At least give them an opportunity to learn. Although it's unlikely, it may prevent them from spreading more misinformation.

a reply to: Not Authorized

I have no problem with debate and helping educate someone of something wrong. But sometimes people with bad world views come up with GREAT ideas. Did you know that Pythagoras was the head of a crazy math cult that believed numbers shape the universe? But most people know him for the Pythagorean theorem. Well that theorem was invented to help prove his crazy cult's truth.

So the question I return to you, let's say that a person in a cult similar to Pythagoras came up to you to proselytize to you, but his cult also contained a valid theorem/law at what point do you shut him out? Of course you wouldn't be given this theorem so readily unless you listened to the guy long enough.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Not Authorized

I have no problem with debate and helping educate someone of something wrong. But sometimes people with bad world views come up with GREAT ideas. Did you know that Pythagoras was the head of a crazy math cult that believed numbers shape the universe? But most people know him for the Pythagorean theorem. Well that theorem was invented to help prove his crazy cult's truth.

So the question I return to you, let's say that a person in a cult similar to Pythagoras came up to you to proselytize to you, but his cult also contained a valid theorem/law at what point do you shut him out? Of course you wouldn't be given this theorem so readily unless you listened to the guy long enough.

You have a point, but the time one wastes listening to fundamentalist proselytizers could be spent listening to people who are far more likely to have something constructive to say. I'd rather listen to people who actually think. Yes, Pythagorus had some strange ideas but he was also a brilliant thinker in some ways. The latter part can't be said about any fundamentalist I've ever met.

a reply to: Tangerine

Hey, I don't like it either. But there is nothing wrong with entertaining their opinion then questioning and asking for evidence for it. If they don't acquiesce, then maybe it's time to move on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A Hazy Clarity.
I once kind of believed that the animals which were flung out to fend for themselves, like lizards and other things which are laid as eggs and go about their life without any nurturing or attention from their parnets, were the one's who never strayed from God. I still believe there may be a governing of sorts at work considering such creatures, but nothing like God or anything that can be explained so simply with the little that mankind actually knows about his world. I fear this will never be explainable because of what people incorrectly believe to be the governing force in nature and the universe. The things we have been conditioned to believe are the things which keep us from being able to see the simple truth of this existence.
What we have been led to believe to be the truth by those who are supposedly in a position to tell us what reality is, is what keeps us stuck where we are.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A Hazy Clarity.
I once kind of believed that the animals which were flung out to fend for themselves, like lizards and other things which are laid as eggs and go about their life without any nurturing or attention from their parnets, were the one's who never strayed from God. I still believe there may be a governing of sorts at work considering such creatures, but nothing like God or anything that can be explained so simply with the little that mankind actually knows about his world. I fear this will never be explainable because of what people incorrectly believe to be the governing force in nature and the universe. The things we have been conditioned to believe are the things which keep us from being able to see the simple truth of this existence.
What we have been led to believe to be the truth by those who are supposedly in a position to tell us what reality is, is what keeps us stuck where we are.

Who spends more time telling us what reality is than religious people? No one.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: addygrace

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted yt?by: Not Authorized
a reply to: 74joff

Sure, Humanity has a herd mentality. Hence, the need for education teaching critical thought processes. Like, if the Old Testament God is God, why is Tyre still in existence? What perpetuates false belief?

Start at the basics. Is it true or not?

If what was presented as a product was true, you wouldn't have any problem selling it.

After many years studying fundamentalist Christians, including some I knew before they became "born again" (ahem), I've concluded that they lack the ability to even learn how to reason critically. Some of them had the ability prior to becoming fundamentalists but lost the ability to reason critically in all situations whether or not related to religion. Some, of course, were born without the ability but the process of brain washing that most undergo when they "convert" seems to knock out the critical reasoning part of their mental circuit boards.

For those who don't know, brain washing is not a process of persuasion in that no processing of information is involved. It is only after the brain is "washed" that the indoctrination begins. It's actually quite frightening how simple it is to accomplish.

Every Christian you know lost their ability to think critically across the board and without exception? No wonder you think Christians are ignorant. That's a strange coincidence. I'm flabbergasted....maybe they all got infected by that Algae virus that makes you stupid.

Just so you can have faith in humanity again, I assure you, your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot.

My critical thinking skills have led me to the conclusion that you are lying. Also, I believe most rational people see right through claims like that.

Your alleged critical thinking skills didn't lead you to carefully read my post. I said "...fundamentalist christians, some of whom I knew before they became 'born again'..." To reiterate, FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

You said, "...your belief in the Christian God will not turn you into a brainwashed idiot." Of course it won't. I'm not a believer. Not to mention that belief has absolutely nothing to do with the process of brainwashing.

Most rational people reading my post and yours will realize that you were unable to understand my post. Your post reflects that lack of understanding.

Oh a fundamentalist Christian isn't just a "born again" Christian? Ok, because "born again" describes what a Christian is.

Either you're a "born again" fundamentalist who considers only "born agains" to be Christians or you have reading comprehension problems. Anyone who self-describes themselves as a Christian, fundamentalist or not, "born again" or not, and who believes in the Abrahamic God and believes that Jesus died for his/her sins is a Christian.

Just to clarify, you can not be Christian and not be "born again". So if that's a fundamentalist Christian, then I don't believe you when you say the fundamentalist Christians you know have lost there ability to critically think. It just sounds like you dislike Christians, just as the OP, and somehow Christians need to be silenced so society can survive. It's crazy arrogance like this that trample people's rights.

If I intended to silence you, I wouldn't be posting to you expecting a response, would I? For your information, most Christians don't buy that "born again" stuff. What does my claim have to do with whether or not fundamentalist Christians can reason critically? What do you mean by reason critically?

If someone says they are Christian but they don't buy that "born again" stuff how do they reconcile the following passage? John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”