Ask Our Northern Neighbors Whether Higher Minimum Wages Kill Jobs

a reply to: peck420

A token gesture like minimum wage is the least they could do. The problem is the corporate powers that be won't give the American people a freaking inch. They just keep extracting labor and resources from our nation and the world for no tangible benefit.

The main argument defending corporatism is that corporate success improves quality of life for everyone. News flash : it doesn't.

Let's stop pretending it does.

originally posted by: peck420

That is a piss poor way to start. It does nothing to fix anything, and just mitigates loses from the government and the corporate entity to the middle class...the class that should be the most cherished.

The same class that's been stagnant or no growth since 1970? Consumers spur economic growth not the status quo! Minimum wage increase would add people to the middle class and would be good for the whole economy.

Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it! We operate under the premise of equality under the law. Creating protections for small business' opens the door for large business' to pry their way around existing regulations.

Would be easier to create a system of increased punitive costs, as size increases, rather than exemptions from regulations as size decreases.

Please many of these regulations are brought on us by industry and there lobby groups attempting to eliminate competition from the mom and pop operations. Look at the farming industry, why do they do farm aid concerts each year in a industry that relies on a product everyone needs? They do it because industry works with government to stifle competition for the giant farm ag industry. Why are SWAT teams raiding small family farms and not big industry?

Before Ronald Reagan there existed a thing called small downtown America, what does that look like today?

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: AlaskanDad


Just because something may appear to work for another country, does not then in turn work for another.

Actually that's exactly what it means.

Economics function the same in most countries in the West. USA and Canada are socially and economically very similiar.

If something works in one, it will work in the other.

How about we cap the pay of congressmen from 174k a year to 50k a year. I mean, how can they actually represent anyone when they don't live and face the same struggles as the rest of us. We can also cap the pay of the president to 50k a year from 400k. We can also drop the pay of the supreme court from around 205k a year, to 50k.

That would come out to a savings of around 67,341,000 a year.

I wonder how many homes, how much food, and basic necessities could be provided on 67.3 million a year. I wonder how much of a drop in taxes that could be had with those savings.

More people making money, means more in taxes. More in taxes, creates a surplus. A surplus means taxes could potentially be lowered. Congressmen who don't lower taxes, get booted out.

Less in taxes, means more in American's wallets.

That's true. On top of all that, there is a relationship between wages and rent prices (annual salary = 40x monthly rent) or mortgages. When there is an over-supply of housing, it's a buyers market and prices fall. Then property developers won't build new properties with the features that attracts newcomers. When there is a shortage due to an economic boom, it becomes a sellers market and prices rise until only a few can afford them, and then property developments start.

But the demand for increases in minimum wages always happen when there's a property boom.
If there is a shortage of housing or office space, then rents rise. You can either bring in rent controls (then landlords can no longer afford to maintain their properties) or build more homes and apartments. But just building more homes in way out places only causes property prices to rise even higher in more convenient locations.

a reply to: tavi45

Accepting tokens and platitudes, instead of actual fixes and change is precisely why the US is in the current mess.

Being distracted from the actual problems by another round of token increases just delays the inevitable.

a reply to: peck420

So let's pass it and move on instead of arguing about how it will destroy everything. It's obviously a token. It will change very little but the corporate defenders act like it will destroy everything.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
The same class that's been stagnant or no growth since 1970? Consumers spur economic growth not the status quo! Minimum wage increase would add people to the middle class and would be good for the whole economy.

Min wage increases don't increase the middle class, they erode it.

Please many of these regulations are brought on us by industry and there lobby groups attempting to eliminate competition from the mom and pop operations.

Laughable. Most regulations stem from knee jerk reactions to momentary problems. Much like increasing min wage in an attempt to increase the middle class.

Look at the farming industry, why do they do farm aid concerts each year in a industry that relies on a product everyone needs?

Ask the consumer that price pinches and coupon clips. Consumer sets the value of a product.

They do it because industry works with government to stifle competition for the giant farm ag industry.

They do it because consumers have placed such a low value on food sources, that only the cost point provided from a very large enterprise can compete.

Why are SWAT teams raiding small family farms and not big industry?

Because big business can afford to employ person whose sole responsibility is to ensure that they operate within the confines of the local laws.

Just recently, a Canadian small farm was shut down, and tried to use the same excuse you just did. It was pretty comical when it came to light that they were shut down due to child labour law infractions...

Before Ronald Reagan there existed a thing called small downtown America, what does that look like today?

I would dare say that the increase in urbanization (and civic planners in ability to plan appropriately for it) has had a far more profound impact on small downtown America than anything else.

originally posted by: tavi45
So let's pass it and move on instead of arguing about how it will destroy everything. It's obviously a token. It will change very little but the corporate defenders act like it will destroy everything.

Your mistake is thinking that it will change very little.

It will just be another incremental erosion of the middle. Which is what should be avoided at all costs, as we now know the significance of the middle, and the difficulties in maintaining and increasing it.

Its not the amount of jobs you need to be concerned with. Its the cost of living rising rapidly and without warning. It starts with the price of little things going up like bread and milk as retailers look to offset the costs of the increase, it then moves into everything from rent prices to hydro costs.

It seems every time they have increased the minimum wage here in Canada, the new wages were harder to get by on than the previous minimum wage was.

Also, you see less full time jobs and more part time and temporary part time work than ever.

Oh and one of the biggest slaps in the face. Say you currently make a wage that the minimum wage is going to be moved up to, you dont get a raise and you now make minimum wage. Yep, sorry about your luck. See the tricky part is that nobody gets a raise who already make above the minimum wage. Now, suddenly your income that was well above minimum wage is now very close to it and companies no longer feel that your line of work is very important and can get anyone to work in these positions and will even eliminate previous requirements like college educations. Oh and because the price of everything goes up, and you didnt get a raise, you now have a more difficult time getting by. This is essentially destroying the middle class in Canada and now they (the anti poverty groups) are talking about raising it to 14 bucks an hour. FFS some jobs requiring college education have starting wages lower than that. Talk about education becoming worthless.

If you ask me they should eliminate minimum wage altogether.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: macman

I agree.

Look at Hong Kong and Singapore. Both are 1 and 2 in economic freedom. Low taxes, bare bones welfare and no minimum wages but have consistently stable economic growth, extremely low poverty and unemployment and provides good opportunity and extremely high standard of living.

Like an early America based economy. Interesting.

originally posted by: AgentShillington
a reply to: macman

No, not envy and jealousy. You are missing a key point in this.

They made their money on the backs of MY TAXES.

They don't pay their employees a living wage, so I have to compensate for that discrepancy.

I don't want Wal Mart's money, I want MY money.

Ahhh, so you want YOUR money. Seems that not only do I want MY money....but the Govt wants OUR money.

Lots of "want" here.

Now, since you want YOUR money, you probably want ALL of it, correct?

a reply to: Pitou

Your right. I mean, what is the point of working to provide for yourself.

Since getting a better paying job seems to be out of the question. Probably best just to sit back and allow others to provide for you.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Actually, my business gets tax breaks for equipment purchased and such.

But, in return, we get hit with this wonderful FET on each item we manufacture.

The Govt is so nice to allow me to keep SOME of what I earn. I mean, they can't have me keeping all of it.

originally posted by: AlaskanDad
a reply to: SaneThinking

More opinion, yet you never addressed my questions, let me make it simpler.

How low do you feel minimum wage should be and why?

My answer to that would be to do away with minimum wage altogether.

Why? so workers can be paid based on skills, experience, and what they contribute to the workforce rather than the government forcing businesses to pay communist style wages to people who dont deserve them.

You would have to live here in Canada to understand that its ruining tons of industries because people simply dont give a f@#k anymore because they can find any job that pays that much and their wage cant be taken away from them. That and because most companies in Canada will never give more than a 10 cent raise every year to minimum wage earners nobody wants to work hard because there simply isnt any point.

a reply to: Painterz

Yes, if in a vacuum and all the items are the same. Sure does.


But, since it is not the same, Sesame Street has taught everyone that "one of these things is not like the other one. One of these things are not the same", it doesn't mean it works for anyone else.

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: Pitou

Your right. I mean, what is the point of working to provide for yourself.

Since getting a better paying job seems to be out of the question. Probably best just to sit back and allow others to provide for you.

You seem to think there is a Job Fairy that people can request employment from. Your economy isn't in the best shape and just GETTING a job isn't easy.

I think taxes are the real problem. I applaud your effort Alaskandad, but the problem isn't minumum wage the problem is a devalued labor market due to a growing population and a dwindling manufacturing base.

Simply put there aren't and won't be enough jobs for everyone. What we need to do is start creating conditions for people to be able to take care of themselves and for basics to be provided. I don't know how to do this but as technology continues to advance our necessarity for a "job" is going to slowly errode.

originally posted by: macman

originally posted by: AgentShillington
a reply to: macman

No, not envy and jealousy. You are missing a key point in this.

They made their money on the backs of MY TAXES.

They don't pay their employees a living wage, so I have to compensate for that discrepancy.

I don't want Wal Mart's money, I want MY money.

Ahhh, so you want YOUR money. Seems that not only do I want MY money....but the Govt wants OUR money.

Lots of "want" here.

Now, since you want YOUR money, you probably want ALL of it, correct?

Only the portion allotted to paying for corporate profits.

originally posted by: deuceawesome

originally posted by: ladylada


Higher minimum wage effects export to a great degree though, making it harder to trade within a world market. I've seen whole factories shut down due to high operating cost.

So not better, just different.

Oh man....that whole "world market" globalist BS is what has destroyed the middle class in North America. How do we compete with third world "emerging" countries that pay literally nothing to employees? Do we really undo 100 years of progress in the west to "compete"? That is what the corporate elites would love and have been trying to do with this globalization kick of the last twenty years.

For me it all started with the Free Trade agreement with the USA in 1990. I live in what used to be a manufacturing hub in Ontario. One by one the factories all shut down to head south for much, much lower wages. Now they are all leaving the USA for Mexico. When they find somewhere even more "competitive" it will be bye bye Mexico.

Like your mention of your salary going up with the rise of the minimum wage increase, it can work the opposite way as well.

Ive never understood what is so wrong with paying people a living wage to work.

most job losses are due to automation rather than outsourcing though
ive said it before ill say it again
the world has changed in drastic ways in the last 100 years..... unfortunately our system of economics has not

people in the central and southern united states feel comfortable because they have their little piece of land for now
but those fields will be cities soon and theyll find themselves facing the same problems as everyone else (and probably be unable to adapt and end up even worse off than your average minimum wage grunt)

fact is the day is quick approaching where employees are a thing of the past (surgeons, soldiers, waiters, drivers.....etc are all in the process of being replaced by machines)
hell it could have happened even sooner if it wouldnt absolutely tank our outmodded economy
but sure enough its happening now whether you like it or not
just a few short decades from now you employer will have no need for you at all