Cake Baking Gay Haters and Gay Mating Cake Tasters find Common Ground

"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." Mathew 6:1

Hmm...

Aaand already brought up earlier, yeppers.

a reply to: charles1952

Why Charles? Why isn't it an example of Christian charity? Merely because you say it isn't?

One Christian is trying to help out his brother and sister Christians. He is making a charitable act.

Are you psychic? Can you read the man's mind so that you know what his intentions are? Or is your own personal bias clouding your perceptions?

You come into a thread celebrating an act of goodness and a possible model for a way that two opposing sides could come together for once and you try to contaminate it with your snide posturing ... you're not helping anything other than to display the content of your character.

I swear, you can obviously portray yourself however you want, but if and when you find yourself tempted to respond to something I've said, you know, to share your understanding and desire to make sure everyone knows what a grand peacemaker you are, may I ask you as a personal favor not to bother. I'll extend the same courtesy to you.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I seem to recall you extending the same courtesy to me a while back. Whatever happened to that?

I would just like to say that I have great hope for our society, most days.

I think we've made great strides in the last 50 years and in the 50 years before that toward becoming a more enlightened people.

I am obviously a very flawed human being, because it would be so easy to respond in kind for selfishness and spite, but then, that merely perpetuates the misunderstandings and differences that divide us so sharply.

mOjOm, I know that I thanked you earlier in the thread for making this attempt. I do love the creativeness of your title as well.

However, I'm going to have to absent myself from the thread as I do not think I can stand another display of ATS' "Christian" charity without being unkind. Best.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
mOjOm, I know that I thanked you earlier in the thread for making this attempt. I do love the creativeness of your title as well.

However, I'm going to have to absent myself from the thread as I do not think I can stand another display of ATS' "Christian" charity without being unkind. Best.

My pleasure. I'm glad you liked it.

Not a problem. I think I've had all the charity I can handle for one day as well. Take care.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Dear Gryphon66,

I'm sorry, truly. I know I'm an annoyance to you, but I'm not sure how to correct that.

The reason I think that this gesture is not truly Christian charity is two-fold. One has been stated in Bible verses from a prepared poster, and again, badly paraphrased by me. It certainly seems that he is not hiding his "charity," but broadcasting it to the world. That's not what Jesus asked for.

Two, over and over he states his purpose as (and again I'm badly paraphrasing) showing the nation and Christians that a Gay man can show "love" and he hopes this will help change the nation's attitude and conversation about Gay marriage. He's giving, it seems to me, to gain favorable publicity for his cause and not out of concern for the Klein family.

In each message he says that he should hate the Kleins for their terrible distortions of the Bible (because he knows how it is to be interpreted by the Kleins?) But to show he's a wonderful, loving Christian, he'll ask other people to send them money.

A nice thing to do? Absolutely! A model Christian act? Nope.

Besides, if a Christian has a problem with his brother, the Bible provides a path for Christian correction, which is not being followed here.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: Ollie769

The sacrament of Marriage is meant to “progress” peoples’ lives to a higher point at the end of that life. Romance and its corresponding emotions certainly lead into marriage and make it enjoyable but in the end a much deeper meaning is learned that the shallowness of emotions cannot hope to approach. The reason marriage is SUPPOSED to be between a man and a woman is because homosexuality only presents one side of life, one viewpoint, one half of the picture to the participants in a day-by-day intimate relationship that mere friendship with the opposite sex can’t present. God is both male and female which makes forsaking one or the other in something that resembles a marriage an abomination in His sight. It’s another Golden Calf.

Ok. I'm of the opinion that Marriage, or whatever relationship people have with one another is defined in the terms and meaning in which that couple chooses and understands. I say this based on my own 15+ year relationship with my wife and the fact that the bond we share is ours and ours alone. So with all due respect we will define what it means for us. We don't need you, the Bible, the Church or anyone else to do it for us. I would suggest that everyone else do the same, but that's their choice as it is yours. So you go ahead and define your Marriage however you want and I'll do the same.

As for the Homosexual relationships and what they are about or represent, I leave that up to them as well. I've never been gay and wouldn't presume to know anything about it. Therefor I'm certainly in no position to speak of it as if I did. I certainly wouldn't speak for God either and make any claim as to how He/She feels about it either.

While the “Gay Gospel” or whatever they’re calling their version of the “old” Bible harps on love, love, love like a hippie in a 60s commune such revisions completely pass over the meat of what Christianity actually is.... Since the Old Testament days homosexuality has been deemed a “sin” which, in other words, means a path, and act, other than what God directed us to follow and for good reason. Unfortunately the scriptures are not good on pointing those reasons out but I’d bet they were laid out quite well in the Oral Traditions known to Kabbalists. One does not make it through boot camp lounging under a tree but sweating it out on the grinder with their fellow soldiers and paying attention in the classes provided. The slovenly, putrid mess that Christianity is today is why the vast majority of so-called “Christians” have no forceful, unified voice to stand up against something that should be rejected on its face such as homosexuality and an enlightened, intelligent response and appropriate support offered as to how one is to progress in Life in its stead.

Once again, Ok. If that's your opinion I say go with it. I don't think I'll bother offering my opinion on the matter, hope that's ok with you too. I will say that I doubt too many people are using the term "Gay Gospel" other than those who like to use it as a negative term in association with Gays. But maybe I'm just not hip with the new lingo being used today.

I will agree that Christianity does seem to be a putrid mess today. But it kinda seemed pretty messy yesterday as well. But who's keeping track really anyway.

The money offered by the evangelical homosexual is not his own but something more akin to the pieces of silver offered to Judas from the collection plates in the Jewish synagogues. If there is any statement of truth offered in the article at The Blaze it’s the one Mrs. Kline wrote in her Facebook page: “Our culture has accepted 2 huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them,” she wrote. “Second is that to love someone means that you must agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense.”

Well, I guess you should go tell him his help is neither wanted nor appreciated then and maybe he'll stop giving it. As for Miss Kline, all I can say is that I guess I was never part of her culture because I wasn't taught nor made to accept those lies. Guess I just got lucky, who knows. I'm sure she'll figure things out for herself just fine though. As will the rest of us.

Sorry I wasn't more informative in this post, but you're speaking from a perspective that I realize has a lot of meaning to you, but to me doesn't hold much meaning. As for the scripture section, also, no offense but I've read my share of scripture from various holy books and I've come to the conclusion that I'll be fine without it. If it works for you, then that's great, keep it up. For me, it just didn't always seem to fit.

Take care.

a reply to: charles1952
Charles, in the past over and over about gay groups being negative, about what they should and shouldn't be doing, about how gay groups should mend their differences with Christian groups by doing charity together and blah blah blah ... In fact one of your major defences of Christianity is the charity it does. I also believe you're a member of the Knights of Columbus which is a Catholic organization - one of the biggest culprits for not following Jesus's word on public advertising.

So a gay person gives money to Christians and suddenly it has an agenda and it's unchristian? Why do I get the impression that the only way for gay people to be on your uncritical side in any capacity is if they become part of the wall paper?

I'd say something awesomely friendly but I wouldn't want you to think I'm making you part of the gay agenda.

Have a nice one.

originally posted by: mOjOm

Wow. A Evangelical Christian who actually "Love's His Enemy" and shows Grace and Acceptance toward those who oppose him.

Nope, just tactics. It's a great way to try and undermine the baker's stance.

It's quite a smart move, in fact, hats off to the guy.

a reply to: mOjOm

Okay, I'm going to attempt to walk you through my thought process on this one because I feel like where this guy is coming from is the very core of the problem between homosexuals and Christians when it comes to gay marriage.

“As a gay man, I should hate Melissa and Aaron Klein,”

Right out of the gate, he is setting up a strawman. Why SHOULD he hate the Kleins? Explain that one to me first, and then I'll continue.

originally posted by: mOjOm
Well, it looks like these two sides may find some common ground after all. Could this be the first step toward peace between the so called Gay Agenda/Gay Mafia and the Christian Evangelical Fundimentalists??? I for one certainly hope so!!!

Christian Bakers Who Lost Their Shop After Refusing to Make a Wedding Cake for a Lesbian Couple Are in for a Major Surprise

Aaron and Melissa Klein, the Christian bakers who gained national attention after they refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple, are in for a big surprise: a gay man who fervently disagrees with their stance on homosexuality is planning to willingly give them a large sum of money.

But Matt Stolhandske, a board member of Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, a coalition of Christians who support same-sex marriage, recently launched an online campaign to raise money for the Klein family, despite his opposition to their views.

“As a gay man, I should hate Melissa and Aaron Klein,” Stolhandske wrote in a recent Washington Post op-ed. “I’m also an evangelical Christian. I can’t understand why Klein or any other Christians twist the words of Jesus Christ to justify this behavior. To me, it’s a deeply harmful and embarrassing bastardization of our faith.”

But he went on to write that, as a Christian, he believes that he’s called to love even those with whom he disagrees, so he’s raising the funds so that the Kleins and their five children won’t suffer under the weight of the potentially massive fine.

Wow. A Evangelical Christian who actually "Love's His Enemy" and shows Grace and Acceptance toward those who oppose him. Finally a member of Religion that is worthy of Respect and who leads by example. Then to top it all off, he's Gay as well. I for one think this guy is a shining example of who we as people of different paths can aspire to. Congrats to this man, may he live a long happy life and blaze a clear path for others to follow. Perhaps there is hope for us yet.

What do you people think??

What's the phrase, "kill 'em with kindness?" He is doing a kind gesture to demonstrate in all practical purposes that gay men are not monsters. Even if it does not change the mind of the former bakers, it will be a good example for thelarger population.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I know we're still officially personae non gratae with each other, but I wanted to thank you for this above response.

We've all got to find some common ground and work together; your post is an example of that. Thanks.

a reply to: mOjOm

What a wonderful story! (Awesome title!)

It's so sad to see Christians using their religion as a tool for divisiveness and bigotry, once again. It's easy to see through their disguise.

Here's something I came across to add to the good (Christian) vibe this thread was meant to project:

Promises From A North Carolina Minister: 'If I Have Gay Children...'

2) If I have gay children, I’ll pray for them.

I won’t pray for them to be made “normal”. I’ve lived long enough to know that if my children are gay, that is their normal.

I won’t pray that God will heal or change or fix them. I will pray for God to protect them; from the ignorance and hatred and violence that the world will throw at them, simply because of who they are. I’ll pray the He shields them from those who will despise them and wish them harm; who will curse them to Hell and put them through Hell, without ever knowing them at all. I’ll pray that they enjoy life; that they laugh, and dream, and feel, and forgive, and that they love God and humanity.

Above all, I’ll pray to God that my children won’t allow the unGodly treatment they might receive from some of His misguided children, to keep them from pursuing Him.

------------

Many of you may be offended by all of this, I fully realize. I know this may be especially true if you are a religious person; one who finds the whole topic disgusting.

As you’ve been reading, you may have been rolling your eyes, or clicking the roof of your mouth, or drafting familiar Scriptures to send me, or praying for me to repent, or preparing to Unfriend me, or writing me off as a sinful, evil, Hell-bound heretic… but with as much gentleness and understanding as I can muster; I really couldn’t care less.

This isn’t about you. This is a whole lot bigger than you.

I encourage people to go and read more this pastor's letter. I't heartwarming and hopeful, just like to fellow in the OP.

a reply to: Pinke

Dear Pinke,

I'm really sorry that there is such confusion between us. You've got a head on your shoulders and I'd rather be walking with you than standing still, while we spend time getting things straightened out.

It is hard to have a nuanced discussion over the Internet. Perhaps it's my fault for even trying. But, let me try to make a few things clear enough for this odd medium we have to work through.

I have always said that what this fellow is doing is a good thing. (If you care about these things, they're almost at $3100.) Fine, I say yet again, give them money. Giving them money is a good and positive thing. OK, are we back together? I'm glad Gays are helping other people.

The objection I have is that the Gay community's charity, in this case, does not follow the model of Christian charity we've been given. Had he said simply "I'm Gay and I want to help them out." I wouldn't question a thing. But his position, and the position of many in this thread is "I'm behaving the way a Christian should. This is Christian charity. I really should hate them, but I'm a Christian and I'm better than that. They're terrible, hateful and bigoted, but I'm above all that." That is repeated in the nation's press, on the web page for raising money and, I suspect, every time he talks.

By stressing Christianity over and over, he claims "This is the way Christians should do it." It's not.

Now about the Gays and the Knights. As I repeatedly said, I have an agenda. I would like to see the two groups working together on a project, so that they can get to know each other person to person. The charity was a side benefit in my mind, to the goal of getting everybody together and seeing each other as real people. I don't care what they do, even if they only play poker with each other, as long as we get past this mess.

I'm so sorry you passed on the chance to say something awesomely friendly. One more opportunity lost.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: SomePeople

I don't normally quote the Bible on this site, but the topic certainly calls for it this time around.

Matthew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them:
otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have
glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret
himself shall reward thee openly.

Good to know. Next time I see a Christian fundraiser, a car wash, bake sale, craft show, food drive, or any other public request for $$$ from a Christian charity, I'll drop a copy of those scriptures off for them to see the errors of their ways!

A Christian turns away his fellow man, denying him equal rights (inequity) because he doesn't approve of (judges) him and his behavior, all the while, claiming that he is doing "God's work", hiding behind God's apron. The poor Christian is thought of as being a "victim" of the nasty and hateful equality mindset...

Then, when one of the "judged" decides to open his heart and reach out to the Christian, to help his brother in Christ, his motives are analyzed under the microscope of the suspicious and hateful "Christian" mindset and determined to be manipulative and malevolent.

What a bunch of transparent hypocrisy! The hatred and judgment is strong with this crowd.

I was raised in an actual Christian household and I remember this from Matthew 7.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Love is SO much more powerful than this hatred and contempt that we are seeing practiced here. Wouldn't it feel wonderful to just let all the hatred and judgment go? Wouldn't it be freeing to let go and leave the judgment and punishment to God? Wouldn't you just love to TRUST God and have FAITH that He will take care of it instead of taking it on yourself?

In the spirit of the thread, I want to offer something I wrote some time ago, when I was friendlier toward the faiths and less jaded and bitter:

Yesua bin Miriam was so tired. He sighed heavily as he sat down under the tree just outside of Capernum and closed his eyes in meditation. He had walked up the hill a short distance outside the city to recover and to seek, not rest exactly, just … that state he sometimes referred to as “a connected silence” in his own lessons for just a few moments before entering the streets and speaking to the crowds again.

He had been ministering to the People all day out in the countryside. Teaching, talking, moving among them, they needed so much and had so little, and sometimes dispensing only a warm smile or a kind touch made all the difference to them. They had started calling him a miracle worker; he put his hands over his eyes smiling, laughing silently at the irony of the idea.

“Didaskalos?” a deep, strong voice broke into his consciousness.

He looked up to see a Centurion standing the perfect respectful distance away, head bowed. Even though his strict training had taught him to look away automatically from the goyim to avoid being corrupted, his eyes lingered for just a moment on the thickly-built soldier standing down the hill. It was so uncommon to see Romans alone, and even more rare to see any expression on their faces held high besides arrogance.

This man though, seemed different in some subtle way. He was probably in his late 30s, and stood there obviously trying to contain some sense of urgency he felt with all the discipline his military training offered him.

The soldier cleared his throat and said, “Pardon the intrusion, Great Teacher, I know you aren’t supposed to speak to me directly, but you’re surely the only hope I have left. My … pais …”

The big man’s voice cracked. Yesua’s mind resisted translating the last word … was the Centurion talking about his son, or his servant or … his lover. Yesua shuddered involuntarily at the latter thought.

The Roman raised his head a fraction and continued in a strong voice that had obviously issued orders to many: “I do not ask you to come to my house, because I know that would cause you to become unclean. I am a man of considerable authority, and when I command that someone do something, they do it. The People say you have the ability to heal, and if that’s true, I know that all you have to do is say a word and it will happen.”

Yesua looked back at the man to find his eyes had risen up to meet his own in a steady, though glinting, gaze.

“Please Teacher, please help my agapamene …”

As his voice cracked, the man’s eyes sunk back to the ground as if he had done all he could do.

Yesua stood, walked a few steps toward the Centurion smiled and said simply: “Go. Let your dear one be made whole. Your own faithfulness is the best thing for him.”

The soldier raised his head back into its natural, slightly elevated position and his face returned to the proud mask that all Romans perpetually wore. As Yesua allowed himself to meet the man’s gaze, warm amber eyes met steely gray ones: “Be it so.”

The Centurion’s fist came up across his chest and out in the standard military salute.

Yesua felt renewed in his mind and soul as the Roman walked away, smiled and turned toward the crowds once more.

originally posted by: Bone75

Right out of the gate, he is setting up a strawman. Why SHOULD he hate the Kleins? Explain that one to me first, and then I'll continue.

As if I really need to explain this to you?? You're just going to try and argue yet another obvious point by me saying this but fine.

The reason is because even thought they hide behind BS like, "Hate the sin not the sinner" or similar phrases, the fact is that these people detest gay people and their lifestyle. So much so, that even simply baking a cake for them is too much to ask. Usually when someone despises you that much it's typical then to hate them right back. That's why he said that.

These bakers and their public declaration to oppose anything to do with Gayness, which is a core part of who this man is, something deep in him that is simply part of his existence, represents a giant group of people that deny him and others some of the basic social activities that everyone else gets to share.

It's not difficult to understand. People try and make it difficult but it's not. I feel stupid even having to explain it, as a 3 year old child can understand it. Ask any child and they can tell you why it's wrong to treat someone like they are less deserving or damaged in some way simply because they are different than others. It's wrong, selfish, rude, insensitive and just plain mean. How do you not understand that???

Update.

The fund raiser is getting very, very close to $3500.

One of the people who posted on the site, had an interesting question. You may recall that the Kleins have lost their business, their truck which was parked in the driveway of their HOME, was broken into and vandalized, and they're facing fines up to $150,000

That poster asked: "If the Gay community really wanted to help, why don't they drop the charges and the lawsuit? The point has been made."