Denial of JESUS = End of Humanity

a reply to: ATF1886

There has always been something that has perplexed me about Christianity.

On one hand you have this Omnipotent, Omnipresent deity a know all see all can do all plus to top it all off it has planned out everything to the end. Opps it is also of note that deity has stepped into mortal affairs on numerous occasions with some heavy handed tactics.


On the other hand there are Christians claiming that deity gave us freewill. That mental gymnastic never ceases to amaze me.

I know how the circular logic works it goes like this

The Bible is the word of god!
But how can you be sure its the word of god?
Because the Bible tells us so!
But why Believe the bible?
The Bible is infallible!
But how do you know the Bible is infallible?
The bible is the word of god!
But how can you be sure its the word of god?
Because the Bible tells us so!
But why Believe the bible?
The Bible is infallible!
But how do you know the Bible is infallible?

And it keeps going like that.

Sorry but there are just too many contradictions in the "good book" for me to conclude it isn't anymore than a collection of tall tales that gets taken way too seriously.

I'm not going to rip into you, I just think you really need to check yourself and the difference between The One and the Jesus figure from religious texts.

a reply to: ATF1886

These people do not care. They are blinded by their own wants and desires to know that they do not take anything with them to the death. They do not accept death and like to act immorally without having to answer for their misguidance.

That is why these people speed, lie, cheat, steal, condemn, complain, kill and all around just do not care.

If people cared about life on this planet, we wouldn't have something that happened in Ferguson but we do because people cannot and will not act morally.

Do not care what you people think of this statement but the truth hurts. This planet is not worthy of going beyond the stars; it is only worthy of the extinction it has brought on itself.

May I ask:

Someone born outside the influence of christianity, not being christian but caring for others would not count in the balance and see his world destroyed?

en.wikipedia.org...

So 1/3 of the faith of the world would decide the fate of the other 2/3? What kind of devil god would do that?
From the Bible itself: Even Peter denied Jesus and now guard the heaven's door!

If you meant not practicing his preaching, then maybe it will lead us in more pain...but humanity destruction?

For me this prediction is, by its own terms, flawed. My God is not excluding but inclusive.

You, and every incarnate souls on this world are my brothers/sisters.

originally posted by: johngrissom
a reply to: ATF1886

That is why these people speed, lie, cheat, steal, condemn, complain, kill and all around just do not care.

If people cared about life on this planet, we wouldn't have something that happened in Ferguson but we do because people cannot and will not act morally.

Wait... wait...

Speeding is a sin now?

And as to the rest of that sentence up there... I have seen more of that from your average "Christian" than I have the average "atheist."

It's just the average Christian tends to be more judgmental about it all. Because they "know" they are free from the burden of guilt by "handing it over to Christ."

Sorry, but that's hypocrisy. That's something that Christ took a VERY firm stance against.

And, just to toss it out there, there is a VAST difference between morality and ethics.

Bet you didn't know this, but the makeup of a lot of the Ferguson area is Christian.


This planet is very worthy of all things that are good, despite what you may judgmentally claim. That's why Christ came, isn't it? Because he felt us worthy of being saved?

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
I think I understand what you were doing and I could not in good conscience back out of the thread without replying. I tried to, but could not.

I don't often discuss any religion/faith here at ATS for many reasons. One of those is that my faith is something I can not and will not budge on. It would be a waste of my time and anyone else's to entertain a discussion in which I had no intention of being swayed either way. Likewise, those who would come in and blast my belief, have no intention on being swayed either. It's a waste of time for both parties.

However, there are certain threads that I stumble upon on occasion to where I read them, and it weighs heavily on me to offer support or a viewpoint. When I try to walk away from those without posting, my conscience has a way of beating me up until I return. I'm sure you know the feeling I am talking about. It's likely the same feeling you had before you posted this thread.

As believers we feel the need to share our views and proclaim Jesus as our savior and the Son of God. We are taught that there will be a "falling away" of the church before the end times. Do I think we are seeing that now?? I absolutely do. I think we have been seeing it since the beginning of time and we could likely be seeing it for many, many, years to come. Who knows?

I am not a church going "Christian". I think many have come in the name of Christianity and have done horrendous things in the name of God and that has driven people away from believing. There will be a price those people will have to pay for that. I believe that there have probably been many things added to the bible, and many things taken out of the bible. I believe that not all people who call themselves Christians will be going where they think they are going. I believe we may be surprised at who we do see when we get there. I am a believer in accepting Jesus as your Savior. I believe in some things that most churches don't preach now, and I believe most churches are preaching for the "tithes" and not for the people or the "word".

We all have to come to our own understanding and we may not all have the same understanding. I have enough of my own sins to worry about without having to worry about everyone else's.

My point is... I wanted to offer you support for coming out with your beliefs as you did. It's a drive in us sometimes that we can't deny. I believe that it would likely not have mattered how you worded it, it still would not have been accepted by everyone and that is ok too.

You did what you felt the calling to do and I have to applaud you for that.

So why can't you budge on your faith? Is it that you are afraid of what will happen when you die? Are you afraid of some punishment for not believing? Are you worried you won't be rewarded for being a good person? Just honestly wondering. I read and hear people say they can't budge but never seem to explain why. It seems to me by the shock in their eyes when i ask, that they are deeply afraid of some hell like punishment or simply missing out on some reward.

In the christian paradigm, there is only one reason to believe. And that is to save your soul from the eternal flames. It's also the only reason to push this onto everyone elses plate. To likewise save your own soul from some horrible punishment that god made especially for those who do not believe and spread the good news. Whats the good news? That he's made this horrible place for all the assholes who disagree with you i guess.


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originally posted by: johngrissom
a reply to: ATF1886

These people do not care. They are blinded by their own wants and desires to know that they do not take anything with them to the death. They do not accept death and like to act immorally without having to answer for their misguidance.

That is why these people speed, lie, cheat, steal, condemn, complain, kill and all around just do not care.

If people cared about life on this planet, we wouldn't have something that happened in Ferguson but we do because people cannot and will not act morally.

Do not care what you people think of this statement but the truth hurts. This planet is not worthy of going beyond the stars; it is only worthy of the extinction it has brought on itself.

Are you available for children's parties?

Just which people are you talking about? And why does it sound like you are excluding yourself from the awefulness that is humanity. Unless your an angel or a monkey with a typewriter Im going to include you in this mess. As a matter of fact i can't remember ever hearing anyone but a friggin religious zealot claiming that humanity is doomed an that they deserve it.

Besides, i never speed. And you just lied, condemned, and complained. I'd like you to stand up for the world to see, and tell everyone that they deserve extinction. Or better yet, lead by example.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It would be so much easier and more pleasant to answer your question and have a discussion with you if it weren't for the attitude in which you choose to ask your "questions". People don't look shocked because you ask them questions that you feel have somehow "caught them out", they look shocked because you probably act like you have in your post to me when asking them whatever you think it is that will trip them up. You come out, hackles raised already.

What does it matter to you how anyone views what will happen to their own soul after they leave this world? I am responsible for mine, just as you are for your own. I have absolutely no problem if you want to believe that there is nothing when you die, or if you think you come back in another body, or even if you think you will just become part of the earth again as a part of nature. So there is no reason there should be a problem with what I believe will happen to my body after I die.

I do not ask you to believe. I do not ask anyone to believe. My belief is all that matters and I choose not to budge in it because it is something that is rock solid. You may choose to believe however you like. There would be no reason to believe to make accepting death any easier. I never see atheists, or other non believers screaming and jumping out of windows when their time comes. The mind and body deal with death when the hour arrives for everyone. Not just believers.

My believing is that Jesus simply was one of the first human beings, in a way that we are taught to live today, i think that this Jesus person tried to teach barbaric people, way of life so that we could atleast try to share what we have, not be greedy, And act idiotic against other human beings.
But ofcourse, people will allways be people, And we shal allways want...
The rest of the roules are just made up by other control wanking bad people with pointy ears And Sharp theeth.

Peace

Sounds like a dandy excuse not to answer the question. Most people won't answer it anyways. It gives away too much. It shows that your decisions are really just self serving and folks don't want to be reminded of that selfish side of their psyche. This is not an attack on you, you can answer the question or not. But not answering only proves my point.

We have commented on eachothers posts enough to know where the other is coming from. I truly mean no disrespect to you personally. I usually find your personality pleasant and i am in general agreement with most of your responses.

This is an important point i'm making though. Christians are afraid not to believe because they fear the consequences of not believing. The consequences that are laid out very descriptively in the old and new testament. It is a rule by fear and punishment.

If anyone is honest enough to answer the question?

What is the penalty for not believing in jesus or god? According to any christian bible.


a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

a reply to: ATF1886

i swing the other way.
i think the day that people stop believing in this fairy tale then thats the day we truly start to live.
that fairy tale and the fictional people in it divides humanity. personally i cant wait for the day when people open up their eyes.

that said, if serving him till you die makes you happy then right on....keep on serving

a reply to: ATF1886

.........defend it till i die!!.......

Out of the norm and into the extremist pan.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It's not a convenient excuse to not answer the question and I do appreciate your compliment. I usually do not do these discussions because they can get heated and I don't like to fight or argue over what someone holds dear to them. If you are wanting me to say that I fear hell, I will say it. I thought that was a given. Nobody wants to go to hell. Not wanting to go does not make me a bad person or any less intelligent in any other way IMO. I do not sit in judgement of anyone who does not fear the same as I have enough of my own sins and shortcomings to worry about.

I liken it to parents. You do fear your parents to an extent. Even if it's only a fear of the punishment that is handed down when you don't follow the rules. Most of us try not to disappoint our parents and try not to get punished in a way that is painful to us at the time (taking away privileges, not being allowed to leave the house, etc.). They set down rules because they love us and want us to succeed and be safe in our lives. They want better for us than they had. Most do at any rate.

That's what I see God/Jesus as. I have no problem admitting that. As I said earlier... I am not a church going Christian. My beliefs do not align exactly with those preaching for tithes or notoriety. I try really hard to be a good person and it isn't because of the fear of hell. My works will not be what gets me to the heaven I believe in. I try to be a good person because I am empathetic to others and I hate to see anyone suffering or hurting.

I do not think that non believers have no morals. I do not think that non believers are bad people. I just think they are Non believers. When I say there is no judgement in that from myself, I am being completely honest. I know that people come and say they are Christians who act like the total opposite and that's what most people assume ALL of us are...but that isn't so.

Not all of anybody is anything. I was not trying to dodge the question, I just felt like whatever my answer is, you will find fault with it even though I am I no way trying to push it onto you. You will never see me pushing religion on anyone here or in real life.

So in short.... I do fear hell, but that does not make me the way that I am. I do sin in many different ways, but I would still help humanity in any way that I could regardless of my beliefs. It's just the right thing to do.

also, IF there is a god(there is not) then he is a bully. he is mean and vindictive.
like the fairy tale of the flood.
god decides to flood earth out and wipe out humanity....why?
he does this cause of all of our misdeeds.....save a few animals and start humanity.

thats not someone ii want to follow in any way.

instead of floating down on a cloud and offering humanity love and guidance he decides on genocide.

ha

definitely not someone i want to follow....

the flood fairy tale is just one of many stories of a larger collective that shows god is a bully.

just one atheists opinion

I always find it extremly odd to talk to you about this topic. Mostly because you disagree with all the bad things christianity tries to push on folks but you still want to be a christian. How can one justify this? Christianity is a package deal. It's like saying i want to hang with the KKK but i don't agree with the bigotry.

Any organization which rules by fear is EVIL. I think you are a prime example of an intelligent rational mind who has been indoctrinated into a group who teaches children by fear. Your rational mind sees and accepts the positive msg of love and growth, honesty and community. But then you literally pick and choose what to keep and what to toss out. You believe in jesus, just not the bad things he said.

In short, you believe in goodness. And because you were told as a child about the consequences of not being a christian, you hold fast to an antiquated system that teaches children that they were born broken and the only way to fix themselves is to propagate the story that you do not even like. for fear of fire and not love of people.

How do you rationalize believing in jesus and the bible, but denying
The very words that you got this knowledge of him from?

How closely does your idea of jesus match the original stories? The ones you learned about him from? The only stories about him literally.

The stories were hijacked so many times they had to hold a counsel 300yrs later to determine which ones would be settled on to be the "true" stories.

The struggle for the minds of our children should not be fought with threats. Im sure we can agree with that. And you cannot separate the idea of jesus from the consequence of not believing him.


a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

a reply to: Woodcarver

Your rational mind sees and accepts the positive msg of love and growth, honesty and community. But then you literally pick and choose what to keep and what to toss out. You believe in jesus, just not the bad things he said. 

What bad things did he say??

What i find funny and amusing is an athiest trying to pull all the answers out of the hat granted your level of intelligence is up there i give that to you but why spend the little time that you guys have left in life worrying about whether God is real or not if in your mind he does not exist why spend so much time and effort tryin to disprove christians and pushing them into corners??

originally posted by: ATF1886
a reply to: Woodcarver

Your rational mind sees and accepts the positive msg of love and growth, honesty and community. But then you literally pick and choose what to keep and what to toss out. You believe in jesus, just not the bad things he said. 

What bad things did he say??

What i find funny and amusing is an athiest trying to pull all the answers out of the hat granted your level of intelligence is up there i give that to you but why spend the little time that you guys have left in life worrying about whether God is real or not if in your mind he does not exist why spend so much time and effort tryin to disprove christians and pushing them into corners??

Many terrible things were attributed to jesus.

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"

He says he's going to kill her kids cause he doesn't like what the mother is doing.

Jesus ordering the killing of apostates (those who desert him):

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (John 15:5-6)"

Jesus saying he did not come to bring peace. A quote directly attributed to him by mathew.

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

He also told slaves to obey their masters instead of the masters to release their slaves. He is the god from the old testament. So all of those people he ordered to be killed and raped. Children bashed on rocks. If jesus is god, then he said those things. Read the bible. Count all the people that god ordered to be killed and raped.

Now granted. I don't believe that any of this was actually done by jesus as i don't believe the fantastical stories attributed to him. And with many key elements popping up in earlier writings from other cultures. That should be more than enough to make any one question the validity of jesus' divinity, or even his existence at all.

Why do i do this?

Because i care about the truth and what can be proven and what cannot. Is that not enough? I live in a world where most people believe fairy tales from thousands of years ago. Why wouldn't that be something to stand up against? Seems like educating folks would be a pretty worthwhile endeavor at that point.

Humanity existed for thousands of years before the alleged existence of Jesus. Why would the denial of this mythological figure suddenly cause man's extinction? There's absolutely no reason to believe this. Even if you're a Christian fundamentalist.

Once again misinterpretation but i did not come to judge let alone argue with you like i said before its my faith i will not budge call me what you want keep taking passages and turning it to your benefit thats fine thats your belief and i am not the judge faith goes beyond what can be proven and what cannot be proven my friend i leave you to your endeavors of trying to prove the unproveable continue living in your fantasy that it did not just like i live in my "SUPPOSED" FANTASY.. a reply to: Woodcarver

Well thanks for not addressing anything i said.

Conversations don't work if you get offended every time someone disagrees with you.


a reply to: ATF1886