Christians: Is it okay to lie for Christ?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
You can't understand or handle the truth when it is told. The absolute truth is a danger to your life. If i told you then you would die.

So why aren't you dead?

Are you special?

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: apydomis

Many, many abusers are truly sorry and repentant for their abuse, after the fact, and repeatedly and sincerely ask their victims for forgiveness. And then, they do it again.

Lack of control over themselves/ego. It is hard to achieve true control on a planet like Earth with so many lies spread by so many people instead of the objective truth that is view less.

No man is free who is not master of himself. Epictetus

My reply to apydomis was in regard to their assertion that sincere repentance is a rare and difficult thing among the not yet saved. Forgiveness and repentance have nothing to do with self control.

a reply to: adjensen

Im not so sure that can be considered lying for Jesus...

Perhaps lying because they dislike or disapprove of Catholic beliefs... and want others to see that what they dislike is false...

a reply to: Akragon

Im not so sure that can be considered lying for Jesus...

Sure, it is -- they're evangelizing, trying to convert Catholics to Fundamentalism. Sad thing is, it works far too often, because poorly educated Catholics fall for this garbage. Karl Keating wrote an excellent book on their dishonest strategies, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, which is one of the things that prompted the program Catholics Come Home.

Diversion is such a conveniently hidden psychology...1000's of victims around the world, prompting very public lawsuits, administered using the uncountable funds of the catholic church are perpetrating one of the biggest cover-ups/lying by an organisation ever known...and you want to talk about statues and lying?!

A99

Is it ok to lie for Christ? Martin Luther believed so.

a reply to: adjensen

Is it okay for Catholics to lie for Christ?

No, most of this does not come from some book in the 90s.

Many frontmen of the reformation concluded the pope was the antichrist and that the Vatican is the whore of Babylon mentioned. I don't know the truth but obviously the reformation didn't take place in the 60s.

The Catholic theology is a lie because the church Catechism is that the common man can't understand scripture on his own; they teach church tradition is of greater truth, importance, belief, then the bible.

That's why you get people doing things like ignoring the command that priests and bishops have to be married and have a family in good order to be able to run a church properly.

Why do Catholics prevent there people from marriage if God's word, which they claim is truth, is against such a thing?

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4

Ministers must be husbands of one wife and must manage their children and their families well.
1 Timothy 3 12

I hope I don't seem too harsh on the Catholic Church but I'll be up front about all Christian churches who all seem too far off target to me.

a reply to: puffinkron247

This isn't a Catholic bashing thread. I asked a serious question, and you seem to be of the belief that there is nothing wrong with lying if it furthers your anti-Catholic agenda. I appreciate the input.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: deadeyedick

You can't understand or handle the truth when it is told. The absolute truth is a danger to your life. If i told you then you would die.

Sorry amigo, I'm calling cheeze on that one.



Tell me the absolute truth because apparently you know what it is.



I have thrown down the gauntlet....tell me! If you back away and don't tell me, or you tell me and I don't die....



What are we to assume? You lied? Adolescent bragging? You're drunk and talking out of your ass? Do it....



Otherwise from here on out you have destroyed your own credibility...your choice





u2u me with the absolute truth now!!!

What you say would be eaqual to the man who saved the day at the slaughterhouse in ok yesterday instead of going to his truck and and getting the gun and stopping the killer it would be eaqual to him handing the gun to him and saying that knife takes too long now you can kill us all.

originally posted by: olaru12
With Christianity you can lie, cheat, steal and commit all sorts of heinous crimes....

then ask for forgiveness and God pushes the reset button, reformats your soul, and it's all good.

redemption...now how convenient is that?

It is convenient to come from an atheist non-smart person.

How about it is human nature to "lie, cheat, steal and commit all sorts of heinous crimes...."?

I'm sorry, I forgot that some atheist don't think like that because they don't have to answer for their crap.
Interesting how it plays out like that

LUUUUUULLLLZZZZZZ

a reply to: adjensen

Where did I lie, and where did I say it's okay to lie for any reason?

I think it's wrong to lie in any case, may I die before ever justify a lie.

Your post is a lie in the fact it says such beliefs arose from a single book in the 1960's. Many people have related the Vatican to mystery Babylon for centuries, and considering much of the art and beliefs expressed by your church are of a pagan orientation such a thing is pretty easy to do.

The scriptures of God are true: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action. -2 timothy 3 16/17

Meanwhile the church Catechism (look it up) states only the church can lead men to God and church tradition and authority over rides that contained in scripture.

This isn't about anti catholic bash time, it's anti truth bashing time.

In pro all people, I'm pro catholics, but I'm against the lies that define and cause stumbling of the Catholic Church.

How can the Catholic Church sit there and decry liars while it has to lie and slander the word of God in order to justify it's deluded doctrines and practises. Isn't it a lie when the RCC tells it leaders that being married is a sin for them?
Doesn't the bible says forbidding marriage is of the devil?

Pretty sure Jesus said to fix your own staggering issues before chiming in on someone else's.

The pagan-Vatican connection is quite obvious to anyone doing research, duh the RCC swallowed up its surrounding figures and traditions to lie about there Godly origins, even many saints are just rip offs of local God's for people to worship while still paying hommage to the church.

No its not okay to lie, but the Catholic Church is the last people that should speak out against liars until they fix things at home. I really love the new pope but even your top leader is a liar who vowed on oathe to God to never become a pope.

Maybe you should send him an email or tweet and ask if he thinks it's alright to break a vow made to God, and if it's okay to lie about such things in order to further a "righteous" agenda (becoming pope to help catholics).

What do you think adjensen do you believe it was okay for the pope to lie and break a solemn vow he made to God to never be pope? (Keep in mind he's the pope, I don't see how he could be corrupt... lol)

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 When you make a vow to God, do not delay in paying it. For God takes no pleasure in fools: Pay what you vow!
It is better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay it.

a reply to: puffinkron247

Your post is a lie in the fact it says such beliefs arose from a single book in the 1960's.

That isn't what I said. I said that most anti-Catholic polemics today are just re-hashed accusations from Loraine Boettner's 1962 book, which they are. Please learn to read.

I am well aware of the Reformation. I was a Protestant for about ten years before I converted to Catholicism, which came about after years of researching the historical record for what the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers taught, which was not Lutherism, Calvinism or the other 30,000 brands of "do it yourself" Christianity.

a reply to: adjensen
a reply to: adjensen


You're still lying, such beliefs are not all based and/or stemming from the book you mention. I've never once seen anyone reference or speak of that book when criticising the RCC, you can't just claim something Is true when there is little to no concensus and then fail to provide any proof of your claim. Show how many RCC bashing authors referenced her book in the last 50 years vs. How many books are available that criticise Rome if you want some creedence. Why is it okay for you to lie that such criticisms stem almost purely from that book when many authors before him also made the same claims? Is it okay for you to lie to promote your ministry?

If you went through the church history the fact you would fail to come across the many Christian men in the past hundreds of years who connect Rome to paganism would be astounding. You're either ignorant or just plain lying. I really doubt you delved much into history aside from what is recommended by catholics.

There are far more studying thsee other figures of history then studying that book from 1960 you mention. We don't need such a book to make the connection the book does, anyone on this site has likely already figured such things out absent of any influence of boettner.

It's funny you say you converted by reading a history written solely by humans. I guess you disagree with that scripture that says al you need is the bible for things, to be fully equipped for truth as a Godly man.

Which part of a historical record made you believe the bible wasn't complete in leading you to the truth?

Why would anyone need the RCC as much as they need Jesus?

No one needs the RCC to be saved, know God, or know the truth and the only people who believe so are mislead, causing them to validate and teach the doctrines of men as the doctrine of God; such people place higher faith In a churches history, traditions and written doctrines then In the word of God.

All churches are corrupt, Jesus says we can identify his church by there fruit. Seems pretty prideful to me how you discount every other set of beliefs as diy Christianity when you can't even explain why your church has devils teachings (according to the word you claim to belief yet are ill prepared to confront)

Please detail some historical accounts and books that pushed you to concluding being part of the RCC is the only right way to be with God.

Can you please tell me why you consider scripture not good or full enough to understand what Jesus, his apostles, and church taught? And why you had to find the truth in a historiography which is not identified as absolute truth by God??

originally posted by: puffinkron247
you can't just claim something Is true when there is little to no concensus and then fail to provide any proof of your claim

If that's not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Lol I'm trying to make a point man. It's bewildering to think this man believes a book that's barely pushing 100 thousand sold in 50 years is influencing the entire awareness of the RCC pagan connection. There's plenty of books before and after written on the subject with no reference to boettners work.
I dont provide evidence or references where the information is so easy to gain you'd have to wilfully ignore it or be absent a few Iq points to fail in its comprehension. It might help but I doubt any effort to provide corroborarive information to the wilfully ignorant is beneficial enough for me to consider it a valuable way of spending time.

Ps. Me love you long time.

a reply to: puffinkron247

As I said earlier, thank you for the demonstration that Protestants lie in the supposed defense of their faith.

originally posted by: puffinkron247
you can't just claim something Is true when there is little to no concensus and then fail to provide any proof of your claim

originally posted by: puffinkron247
I dont provide evidence or references where the information is so easy to gain you'd have to wilfully ignore it or be absent a few Iq points to fail in its comprehension. It might help but I doubt any effort to provide corroborarive information to the wilfully ignorant is beneficial enough for me to consider it a valuable way of spending time.

I've noticed people with this type of attitude don't last long on ATS.
Just bringing it up for your awareness.

What in the world is going on in this thread? Why are the kindergartners attacking the adults? Is there some nuerological trigger that turns peoples minds off when they hear the word "Catholic," "Christian," or sometimes even "Religion?"

The OP presented a narrow and reasonable question. "Is it okay to lie for God?" I could make a case that in some circumstances it is alright to lie to save a life (Corrie ten Boom hiding from the Nazis), but lying to accomplish something for God?

Of course, it's not right. A reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the two photos in the OP is that the person claiming it was a statue of Semiramis was lying. There is a very faint chance that the individual involved was incredibly misinformed, but a lie is a more reasonable explanation. At any rate, someone in the line of producing that photo was most definitely lying.

On the topic of lying.

You're still lying, such beliefs are not all based and/or stemming from the book you mention.

You're calling adjensen a liar? I would suggest an apology, or if you think he's lying then do this:

First, find out if he ever said that all such beliefs are based on or stemming from one book. As it turns out, he didn't, you invented it.

As a converted Catholic, I'm a bit sensitive to anti-Catholic polemics, and have come to realize that most of it goes back to a book from the 1960s, Roman Catholicism, by Loraine Boettner. Which means that it's mostly rooted in ignorance, willful or not.

Well, you've shown yourself to be wrong right there.

Step two, is to show that adjensen knew he was speaking a falsehood with the intent to deceive. You can't do that either, especially since you don't, by your own admission, even know what he said.

Had that been a slip, a case might have been made for you, but then you say:

Why is it okay for you to lie that such criticisms stem almost purely from that book when many authors before him also made the same claims? Is it okay for you to lie to promote your ministry?

You make the same accusation again with absolutely nothing to back it up except your own over heated brain.

Listen, I may sound like I'm being harsh, but my real intent is to get you back on the tracks before you embarrass yourself much further on these boards. I know you have something to say, but you're coming at this with a "Shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. I don't know if you've spent a lot of time on sites where that kind of approach is admired, but here it gets one labelled as a raving loony if it's kept up.

Please, reconsider what you're saying and start over. Maybe staying away from this topic for a little while.

Some of the latter points you bring up, are at least subject to discussion, if even only briefly.

Nobody, not even the Church itself, says you need the Church as much as you need Jesus.

If the Bible is the Word of God, where in the Bible is it said that it is the only Word of God. In fact, as you know, the Bible itself says that Jesus said and did many things that weren't recorded there. Do you think that those things were forgotten and not saved, by word of mouth, if nothing else.

And whence comes your authority to judge anything in religion as true or false. If all organized religions are corrupt (as you say), then it is one man's interpretation of the Bible against another's. All you have the logical authority to say is "I read it differently." You can't claim your opinion of the Bible is better than anyone else's. Actually, since all men are corrupt, your interpretation is probably wrong.

The Church, however, has the authority given to it by Jesus, and the promise of Divine assistance to go with it's authority. Some men have misused that authority, but in spite of that "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Honest advice? Calm down a little, think things through, use some logic, and try to find a little love in your heart for fellow Christians.

a reply to: adjensen

The Spirit of deception is not always the fault of the person. Clearly, humans can be enticed and nudged into deceptive situations by Yahweh.

1 Kings 22

19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

We also get this type of thing from the New Testament.

2 Thessalonians 2

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The point is that people are believing their own lie. I personally believe education would have saved the day in both instances. Instead, we are left to our ignorance. Delusion and lies are not marks of honesty and truth.

a reply to: adjensen

You know my friend I don't know Diddly Squat about Religion.
I was taught that Lying was apart of Human Nature and it needed to be Confronted and Shown to be a Liar.

I didn't really ever think about religious people lying, I was always taught, Religion was a lie.

Sorry, but you know where I come from......