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Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

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posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Did you know that "Seperation of Church and State" wasn't even actually in any of the founding documents? Did you know that it was in a letter?

Did you know that the purpose thereof was the keep the GOVERNMENT out of RELIGION. Not the other way around.


incorrect. ever heard of the treaty of tripoli?


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


the separation was to prevent zealots from screwing with government relations, or more specifically, foreign relations. and it kind of caught on from there. it was of course ratified by the sentate, thereby supporting the idea that America was intended to be religiously neutral. the only position that makes sense to take in a country that prides itself on freedom of religion. seriously, how can a christian government be trusted to defend and protect the rights of pagans and muslims that reside beneath its authority?
edit on 4-10-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 10:26 AM
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a reply to: Akragon

So He was simply just trying to scare folks into conversion for personal gain and meant nothing more than a place outside of Jerusalem then? Do you believe Jesus was raised from the dead?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew10

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke16

and here?


originally posted by: Akragon
That good old... Join us or die kinda love...
Gotcha..



John 8 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 28 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.Matthew12

is there more to be concluded here?

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Revelation18

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation20

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Micah4



a reply to: Akragon

It rarely if ever follows the teaching of Jesus... But lines right up with Paul


Clearly Jesus was but what is this?

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans8

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Hebrews2
edit on 4-10-2014 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: Rustami

why is so much of your post NOT in your own words? are you incapable of speaking for yourself, or are the words of dead shepherds really so much more eloquent than your own?



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 11:28 AM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Rustami

why is so much of your post NOT in your own words? are you incapable of speaking for yourself, or are the words of dead shepherds really so much more eloquent than your own?


we're not really speaking here but yes they are, are not and suppose you could consider me to have somewhat of a writing disability and give these as evidence to a pointed understanding

the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God Ephesians6

and by it he being dead yet speaketh..
for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.Hebrews11

Romans 15 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme Mark3
edit on 4-10-2014 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Human Rights comes from simply being human. No God is required. We are beyond rule by Devine Right, which is really what is being argued.

I think your thread is being hijacked. We still do not have a rebuttal to YHWH's genocide. I see more red herrings, appeal to emotion, and quoting fiction with allegations of blasphemy (which could be applied in reverse by any other religion), but not much substance.

Could you elaborate further as to YHWH'S moral failures?



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Why won't God heal amputees?

Murgatroid, if you link healed amputee stories like you did in another thread, please make sure they are verified accounts and not anecdotal sources.

That is one of the most ironic statements I have seen in a long time.

This isn't meant as an insult, I'm just stating a fact.

Many others come to ATS who ARE actually interested in the truth, you are not the only one reading these posts obviously.

FYI: YOU are an anecdotal source.

The only thing you accomplish by statements such as that is damage your OWN credibility...

Whenever I read things like that, it always makes me wonder about a persons motives and whether or not they are really interested in the truth.

One will NEVER find the truth if they limit their search to sources that do not HAVE the truth.


Sid: Have you ever seen this happen at one of this happen at one of your meetings or when you prayed for someone?

Kevin: Yes, we have seen creative miracles.

Sid: Tell me one.

Kevin: Well, once in India a man grew a foot.

Sid: Grew a foot?

Kevin: His foot came back upon his body, yea.

Sid: How did you pray for him or did it just happen in the presence in the atmospheric anointing?

Kevin: This literally happened in the presence of the Lord. The Bible says at times the presence of God is there to heal and this particular meeting Sid, there were about conservatively 19,000 people there and I saw Jesus step into the meeting with my open eyes. And the Lord walked through the number of people that were in that meeting and just began to touch people and people were just healed. There were literally hundreds of healings in that meeting and dozens of blind people healed. I didn’t touch anyone, the presence of God literally Jesus was there to touch and heal.

Sid: Now, what happened when this man came forward and said I had my foot restored? I image the presence of God must have, whatever it was it must have been a 1,000% higher.

Kevin: Absolutely Sid, unfortunately I was limited in that meeting. We were not able to take testimonies at the meeting. But we received the testimonies later from our host pastor who called us to give us a report of all these different miracles that had transpired. Another lady had vertebrae grow back in her spine. There was many blind people that were healed, tumors had dissolved; just incredible miracles that the Lord Jesus Himself manifest.

Sid: Kevin there are so many things I want to ask you about, but I have to tell you the thing that intrigues me the most is when you had a vision of vaults in Heaven having to do with spare body parts! Explain that.

Kevin: You know the Bible says that we are seated with Christ in Heavenly places and there was a season in my life when the Lord would invite me to come up into Heaven and to fellowship with Him. And I’ve been in many places in Heaven, but there was a season where I went to this particular place which I call the library. And near the library there are these huge vaults which have many different things in them. With this particular instance here you asked me about the Lord directed me to go into this vault and Sid it looked like a bank vault only if it was ten times larger than a bank vault. It had a massive door and there were two strong angels and I knew that those angels were assigned to oversee the content of the vault.

So when I went into the vault what I saw was rows and rows and rows of very immaculate what looked to be medical implements and there were stacked high as you could see, you know fifty feet high on either side rows neatly arranged of body parts and there were, you know, eyes and fingers and livers and pancreases and whole arms and legs and fingers and toes. And I knew just from being there I had revelation thru the unction of the Holy Spirit that these two angels were just two of many many thousands of angels like this that God has in Heaven who can co-labor with us to bring body parts to people upon earth.
Transcript

About 500 yards from The Throne Room of God, my friend took me, and I was captivated by the sign on the outside that said, "Unclaimed Blessings". When I opened the door, to my astonishment I saw legs hanging there from the wall. Every part of one's anatomy was there in that room. And people ask me, why do you need a place like that? Because God has a spare part room. God has a miracle. And I saw what happened, Sid, when people on the earth pray. The prayers go up and Jesus receives that prayer. His commission sends out an angel.

The angel goes and takes it in the spare part room, brings it down immediately. Now sometimes it's instantaneous. Sometimes it's like Daniel, who had to wait 21 days to receive his manifestation. But here's what I saw. I saw people receive their miracle. Then on the other hand, I saw the angel bringing the miracle to the person and the person would say something like this, "Well I guess it's just not my time."

Transcript


The miracle of Calanda is another example...


It happened in Spain in 1640, when a young man's injured leg was amputated. Two and a half years later, his leg was miraculously restored. It's become known as the Miracle of Calanda, and it's perhaps one of the best documented of miracles. The faithful have hard evidence to back it up, and the skeptics have no answer.

As the story spread, it drew in the curious and the official. A few days after the miraculous restoration, a delegation consisting of a priest, a vicar, and the local royal notary came to Calanda to see for themselves and to prepare an official record of the event. They took statements from witnesses and carefully documented Pellicer's story.

Two months later, a trial was opened in Zaragoza where more than 100 people testified that they had known Pellicer with only one leg, whereas now he had two. Ten months later, the archbishop rendered a verdict that the restoration of the leg was canonized as a true miracle. Since that date, skeptics have no longer been able to charge that God does not heal amputees.

The Miracle of Calanda

There are reported cases of amputated limbs being healed (besides the biblical account of the servant’s ear). I remember a story in which Smith Wigglesworth felt led to tell a man with no legs to go buy shoes. When the man put his peg-leg into the first shoe, a leg instantly grew out! The same happened for the second shoe.

Creative Miracles - Can God Heal a Severed Limb?




edit on 4-10-2014 by Murgatroid because: Added link



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 01:27 PM
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a reply to: Rustami


we're not really speaking here but yes they are, are not and suppose you could consider me to have somewhat of a writing disability and give these as evidence to a pointed understanding


thank you for informing me, i had not known. however it does not help me to understand you when you use bible verses. using someone elses obscure and cryptic messages to convey your understanding of those messages is a silly way of doing things and does nothing to aid my exchange with you.



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

You're welcome, strangely enough I speak for a living



Human brains are naturally wired to speak; they are not naturally wired to read and write. With teaching, children typically learn to read at about age 5 or 6 and need several years to master the

4-5 years Uses clear voice, detailed sentences, sticks to topic, uses appropriate grammar, says most sounds correctly
skill.www.readingrockets.org...




The two mediums, though
historically related, function as independent methods of communication..
Normally, whenever two people are in earshot, they speak to each other.. someone who cannot
speak or hear (and who is unable to use sign language) - would motivate the enormous trouble
of writing down what we wish to 'say'. Conversely, people who are separated by distance in
space or time, and who lack electronic means of communication, have no alternative but to
write to each other.
Moreover, the status of the two mediums is not the same.. (though archives of recorded
sound are beginning to introduce a balance). www.pearsonlongman.com...


All modern letters are conversions of ancient hieroglyphs


How a word sounds in hieroglyphics is more important than how it is spelled. - See more at: traveltoeat.com...



edit on 4-10-2014 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
Could you elaborate further as to YHWH'S moral failures?


Certainly. I've been working on that actually. Should have it in here by the end of the day (PST). I'll show more of what are, in my opinion, significant moral failings. We'll ask the question, "Does the punishment fit the crime?"
edit on 4-10-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 03:56 PM
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originally posted by: Murgatroid
One will NEVER find the truth if they limit their search to sources that do not HAVE the truth.

Those are not verified accounts, in any way. They are just claims being made by people. You would think they could offer up some proof but no, they don't. Nothing beyond their stories. Don't you wonder why that is?



The miracle of Calanda is another example...

No, it's not. From the article you linked:


We can't say that the Miracle of Calanda is not genuine, and we can't prove that Miguel Juan Pellicer's leg was not miraculously restored. But we can say that the evidence we have falls short, and is perfectly consistent with no miracle having taken place.

If God restores lost limbs you would be able to find more than a handful of anecdotes. You would be able to find a lot of information on the web about it along with scientists and doctors etc. sharing their thoughts and theories as to how/why it happens. Most importantly, you would have solid, documented cases of it happening. People would be studying the phenomenon.
edit on 4-10-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

you are a prime example of the conjunctive efficacy of both cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias. use a dictionary if you cant figure out what that means, it will be an excellent break from your "good book" and much more educational.



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 05:43 PM
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originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
They are just claims being made by people.


Everything you said applies to your own writings here in this thread as well.

Just claims made by you.

Nothing BUT anecdotal stories.

A lot of claims with not a single shred of evidence to back them up.

This for example:


originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
God is the invention of man.

I would think that if YOU could offer up some proof as well you would, but no, you didn't and you can't.

Don't YOU wonder why that is?



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

So you agree those limbs were never restored or are you just trying to deflect by turning my own words back at me? Yes, I do believe God is the invention of man. That is my opinion and I believe it to be a factual one. The intention of the OP was to offer up some evidence for that. By showing God's character many things are revealed. Since you've been reading the thread I won't go over them again, but to sum it up God is a tyrant. Which is inconsistent with everything Christianity teaches, and claims about God. Or if they acknowledge he is a tyrant they feel it's justified, nay, righteous. The fact that God's morals reflect whatever the morals of the time are, is more evidence that he is an invention of man, and not an almighty limitless deity. The very fact that our morals are superior to an alleged perfect deity is the icing on top of the cake.

None of that is proof positive that God is the invention of man, I will give you that. But this thread is only looking at one sliver of evidence that suggests that. In the future I may do other threads, covering other evidence. This thread is specifically for the moral angle. If you want to research the subject on your own, I encourage you to do so. If you feel the intention of the OP was a load of crap, you are welcome to make a case against it.
edit on 4-10-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2014 @ 06:21 PM
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a reply to: Murgatroid

Can't prove a negative as they say. Can't prove that the philosphers stone abd unicorns don't exist either. It's just as accepted assumption based on observation and lack of evidence to the affirmative. It does help when the myth is convenient for answering hard questions though. Espeically when the answers make you feel better about being the cosmological equivalent of a quark. But I am curious as to what makes wakeupbeers posts anecdotal. I don't see that.
edit on 4-10-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 05:24 AM
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a reply to: Not Authorized

In regards to the killing of the Amaleks :

It was a justice killing for the treatment of Israel coming up from Egypt. Amalek was making hindrance to the people of Israel that the Lord was delivering.


1 Samuel 15 : 2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.



Exodus 17 : 8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.



In regards to Judges 18 :

Let me just spell it all out for you, since you're obviously blind to what the text says and means. You have to understand that in the Bible, we have both the Word of God, as well as stories told about what people did. Just because a story is told in the Bible, doesn't necessarily mean that it was God sanctioned, or that the people were actually doing what was right in the sight of Him. Everything must be taken in context with everything else.

We must start in Judges 17, as it's part of the same story. So, here goes!
First and foremost, we must note that at this time, people were not doing what the Lord commanded, as there was no king currently reigning.


Judges 17 : 6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


So. Every man was doing that which was right in his own eyes. Let's see what else the Bible has to say about men doing that which is right in their own eyes :


Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


We've now established that people were just doing whatever they wanted, without taking heed to what God wanted.
Now, let's actually get into the story :

There was a man named Micah. We don't get any backstory, but we know that Micah stole a fair amount of silver from his mother, and then returned it. His mother makes idols and graven images with this silver, telling Micah that she's making them for him! He takes them, and has a house of gods.

A Levite sojourner comes along, and Micah takes him as his priest. Not to the Lord God Almighty, mind you, but unto this house of false gods and idols that he has.


Judges 17:3 And when he had restored the eleven hundred shekels of silver to his mother, his mother said, I had wholly dedicated the silver unto the Lord from my hand for my son, to make a graven image and a molten image: now therefore I will restore it unto thee.

4 Yet he restored the money unto his mother; and his mother took two hundred shekels of silver, and gave them to the


Judges 17:8 And the man departed out of the city from Bethlehemjudah to sojourn where he could find a place: and he came to mount Ephraim to the house of Micah, as he journeyed.

9 And Micah said unto him, Whence comest thou? And he said unto him, I am a Levite of Bethlehemjudah, and I go to sojourn where I may find a place.

10 And Micah said unto him, Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and I will give thee ten shekels of silver by the year, and a suit of apparel, and thy victuals. So the Levite went in.

11 And the Levite was content to dwell with the man; and the young man was unto him as one of his sons.

12 And Micah consecrated the Levite; and the young man became his priest, and was in the house of Micah.


Now, in Judges 18, it's re-iterated AGAIN that there is no king in Israel currently. So people are doing wickedly, whatever they deem right in their own eyes. Dan is still seeking their inheritance, but under no guide from the king and from God.


Judges 18:1 In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel.


So they come upon Micah and his priest, asking what they should do. At this point, the priest tells them, "Go in peace, the Lord is with you."
We must remember that this priest is "priesting" unto a house of false gods and idols. He hasn't the faintest idea what God wants. He's doing what he thinks is right in his own eyes. So he sends them out, they spy out the land, come back, threaten Micah, and steal his idols and take his priest. Then they go about laying waste to a peaceful town, overtake it, and setup those false gods and idols that were stolen from Micah.

Hope that clears everything up for you. You're just demonstrably wrong regarding Judges 18. This was NOT a God sanctioned, indiscriminate killing, as you seem bent on insisting.



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 05:31 AM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
I see more red herrings, appeal to emotion, and quoting fiction with allegations of blasphemy (which could be applied in reverse by any other religion), but not much substance.


Just so I have this right :

It's ok for you guys to use the Bible to try and demonstrate why God is wrong, but it isn't ok for us to use that same Bible to rebut what you're saying? You'll lend credence to the Bible while you're trying to tear God down, but not when we explain to you what it actually means?

Typical...
edit on 5-10-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Not Authorized

In regards to the killing of the Amaleks :

It was a justice killing for the treatment of Israel coming up from Egypt. Amalek was making hindrance to the people of Israel that the Lord was delivering.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. I see. So, YHWH condones "justice killings" too. I mean, so much for face your accuser, and have a trial by jury thing, etc. If YHWH orders you dead, even if it was actions caused by your great great great grandfather 400 years prior, to bad!

Justice killing.., no, this genocide is because of a blood feud from Esau's line. This is probably why they resisted, and Moses ordered it to be a perpetual genocide. It would limit legal land claim issues over Jacob stealing Esau's birthright.

Remember, these books are a tribal origin mythology. You will find "Who were the Amalekites" in this link here.

It doesn't take much to figure out what happened there with this story. What is more sad is how Jacob's side treated Esau's line. Esau welcomed his brother back. In Samuel, Jacob's side decided to restart to genocide his line out of existence. Probably old land claim issues that were being raised, triggered it.

I digress. We're still pretending YHWH is real.

I am not sure why you defend inhuman actions against other human beings ordered, sanctioned, and condoned by the alleged Creator. The Creator I speak of is the one that keeps you alive orchestrating this:



..every moment in million of cells, feels the needs to orchestrate justice killings as a side job? Uhh huh. Why couldn't he just stop DNA replication?


In regards to Judges 18 :

Let me just spell it all out for you, since you're obviously blind to what the text says and means.


Sure!


Judges 17 : 6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


That's it? No king? I was expecting more. This is the basis of your entire argument as to why YHWH didn't know, or prevent the genocide in Laish?


Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.


YHWH wasn't there? As you said, no king. Wait a minute. YHWH is king. He is not only that, he claims he is first and last in this same verse. He has always been Israel's king according to Isaiah. He should have been there, if this claim in Isaiah is true.

Problem. Deuteronomy 18 applies. One of these books is false. Isaiah, or Judges. Which one do you wish to throw out? One of them has spoken presumptuously in the name of YHWH.

Snip the rest. I reject the premise of your whole No King as the reasoning. That claim alone points out a contradiction in the text to me.

I will not regurgitate what I already posted. The rest of Judges 18 was Dan echoing the earlier actions of Joshua using a working template.
1.) Spy out the land
2.) Steal the land.
3.) Pick up phat silvery lewt in the form of an idol on the way.
4.) Genocide Laish



It's ok for you guys to use the Bible to try and demonstrate why God is wrong, but it isn't ok for us to use that same Bible to rebut what you're saying? You'll lend credence to the Bible while you're trying to tear God down, but not when we explain to you what it actually means?


Where did I say that? I didn't say you couldn't use your book at all. I said it is fictional. I am treating it as fiction. This recent article about Jesus NEVER existing gives more reasoning. This site here focusing on dismantling the fabrication is also pretty extensive.

Naturally, if I wanted to defend Harry Potter as a fictional character, I would quote from Harry Potter. You can quote from your fictional book all you want. Where you err, is attempting to limit our discussion to ONLY using the bible with you. This is a fallacy and requires assumption on our parts to "play along" to make your fantasy legitimate. In fact, the second one stops playing along is the second it becomes a bunch of meaningless words.

In my opinion, it is scary you are turned so upside down, you can't even recognize genocide when it is described for you using the dictionary and existing treaties applicable today.

If YHWH ordered the g̶e̶n̶o̶c̶i̶d̶e̶ justice killings, of all unbelievers today, would you follow it?



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 04:36 PM
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So I've broken it all down for you and you STILL refuse to see it.

I see now first hand what the Bible means about casting your pearls before swine.

I don't care if you reject the "kingship" idea or not. You don't know the Bible. I do. That's similar to someone saying "I reject that 1+1 = 2".
I demonstrated to you the reasons you were wrong. Just because you're blind, doesn't mean you're right. You can cover your ears and say "lalalala" all you want.
Professing yourself to be wise, you've become a fool.

There is a difference between a human king, and God. Yes, God was there. Yes, God sees everything. Yes, God is the first and last, and the king of all of Israel. But they also had human kings. That doesn't mean that he is going to step in and supernaturally stop every man from doing wrong. If he did, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, we wouldn't have a Bible, and we'd all be robots. Are you pretending to be dense just for the sake of argument?

Regarding the Amalekites, I don't mind calling it genocide. It was. What it wasn't was pointless, unjustified genocide.


originally posted by: Not Authorized

I am not sure why you defend inhuman actions against other human beings ordered, sanctioned, and condoned by the alleged Creator.


The Creator does what he wants with His creation. Who am I to question the motives of Almighty God?


originally posted by: Not Authorized

If YHWH ordered the g̶e̶n̶o̶c̶i̶d̶e̶ justice killings, of all unbelievers today, would you follow it?


Pointless hypothetical that doesn't, can't, and won't ever exist. I'm not even going to give a response to that.
I wouldn't pretend to be able to argue against you in something like higher math and physics, as I have no knowledge about them, and can readily admit that.

Why do you insist on arguing the Bible with me? Like I said, it's akin to a physics major arguing with a 3rd grader, or even better yet, a 3 year old, about math.

You know how when little kids are ignorant of something, yet continue to insist that they are right? And then eventually you just have to smile and shake your head at them, and say "whatever, kid."

Whatever, kid.

At the end of the day, if you're right, then no harm, no foul. I've not done anything evil to anyone, or oppressed anyone with my beliefs. Just wasted my own life, which I'm free to do. We just die and that's it.

However, if I'm right, you're going to be in for quite a nasty surprise. God is just, and loving, and good. He is also jealous and wrathful.
edit on 5-10-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 05:52 PM
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a repl to: graphuto

Yay!! More evangelical red herrings!! Lets skip all of that, and dig into the meat and content of what you really said, instead.

So, is genocide is acceptable to your denomination of Christianity, or just you? Thank you for admitting that. If you accept any form of genocide, my advice is to seek help. Immediately.

Justified genocide. Unbelievable. What is wrong with you? That is murder on a mass scale. No genocide is ever acceptable. Period. You just proved the OP's entire premise for this thread. So much for thou shalt not kill, and treat thy neighbor as thyself. I guess that only applies when you worship the same God as your neighbor, or until justifiable genocide is commanded. Got it.

The recent blogger stating the same thing about the Palestinian people pulled that down, almost instantly. Why? Because it is never justified in today's world. Ever. Perhaps you should take a lesson from him?

Sick. Very sick. I worry for your mental health.

By the way. Actually I do know your scripture. Would you like me to take a picture of all my collection of fundamental books and sermons? Missler, Chuck Smith, Lindsey, LaHaye, Hagel, etc? Or the gigs of MP3's I collected over 10 years? I put them in a box in my garage after I realized it was all fiction.

As for that whole what if I'm wrong argument, it is a reductio ad absurdum, used only when an evangelical is backed into a corner. The insulting my age as an aggression technique, which you have no idea of either, is amusing. I reacted the same way when those I was trying to convert, rebuffed my quoting scripture with solid reasoning. Shame. You assume I do not know evangelicals of Christianities have a disbelief system attached, in which by aggression, you think you can beat me into accepting the question you pose, is even valid. It is not.

The Bible is just as real as Harry Potter. Maybe we should start watching out for Lord Voldemort.

But my question still stands. Considering your God carries out justifiable genocide, would you participate in it today, if ordered? It is not pointless hypothetical as you just told us all, genocide by YHWH can be justified.

That is a question that could impact anyone today.

edit on 5-10-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: Not Authorized

There is a difference between killing and murder.

The commandment is "Thou shalt not commit murder" not "thou shalt not kill"

Just like there is a difference between lying and bearing false witness against your neighbor.

The commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor" not "thou shalt not lie"


Just because you have tons of books and sermons and a Bible doesn't mean you know them. It's blatantly obvious that you don't, or you wouldn't misconstrue it in the way you have.

As for your loaded question, again, it's an impossible hypothetical. We have the entire Bible, or Word of God. It tells the beginning from the end. We know that we'd never be ordered by God to commit genocide in this day and age. Want to talk about genocide? How about when God himself finally gets sick of all the blasphemy and lies and pride and arrogance and destroys the entire WORLD. We're talking BILLIONS of people, dead.
Not that it really matters, as non-believers are dead already.

Call me mentally ill if you wish, I could really care less what you think.


As for the "kid" remark... Man, you really must be dense.
Do you really think that I think you're younger than me? You're likely a few years older.
It was an illustration.

As for my "reductio ad absurdum", it isn't out of aggression. It's simply the truth of the matter. No matter how you look at it. Call it what you want, the point still stands. If you're right, we're all fine and dandy. If I'm right, well...
edit on 5-10-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)



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