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Breaking the Strong Delusion: Our Morality vs. God's Morality

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posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:04 AM
My apologies for the length of the OP...

How does the Christian God stand up to todays moral standards? The God that gave us the Ten Commandments, and later fulfilled prophecy by sending his one and only son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Supposedly. What if we were found to have higher moral standards, or even superior? Is it even possible for us to have a better understanding of ethics than the creator of all things?

Who is God? A deity without flaw? Let's take a closer look at that.
I will be quoting from the KJV. There are many Online Bibles if you prefer a different version. Feel free to look up the verses for deeper context. Let's ask ourselves where we stand on certain topics and compare them to God's position on them. Let's get a better image of God's character.

Where do you stand on rape?

Wikipedia says,

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse (or other forms of sexual penetration) initiated against one or more individuals without the consent of those individuals. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent.The term rape is sometimes used interchangeably with the term sexual assault.

Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. To be violated like that by another human being can, and does leave people severely traumatized. What kind of mindset does it take to make doing that to someone ok? Are there ever justifications for rape? Maybe... if it's the spoils of war?

When part of a widespread and systematic practice during international conflict, rape and sexual slavery are recognized as crimes against humanity and war crimes. Rape is also recognized as an element of the crime of genocide when committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a targeted ethnic group.

Apparantly not, and rightfully so in my opinion.

Here are just a few examples of wartime sexual violence:

During the Boxer Rebellion, Western forces of the Eight-Nation Alliance went on a killing, looting, and raping rampage against Chinese civilians. Thousands of women were raped by the western forces on a massive scale. A western Journalist, George Lynch, said "there are things that I must not write, and that may not be printed in England, which would seem to show that this Western civilization of ours is merely a veneer over savagery." All of the nationalities engaged in looting and rape. Luella Miner wrote that the Russian and French behavior was particularly appalling. Chinese women and girls committed suicide to avoid being raped. The French commander dismissed the rapes, attributing them to "gallantry of the French soldier".

The sometimes widespread and systematic occurrence of war rape by soldiers and civilians of women has been documented. During World War II and in its immediate aftermath, war rape occurred in a range of situations, ranging from institutionalized sexual slavery to war rapes associated with specific battles. The Judge Advocate General's office reports that there were 971 convictions for rape in the U.S. military from January 1942 to June 1947, which includes a portion of the occupation.

The term comfort women is a euphemism for the estimated 200,000, mostly Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese and Filipino women who were forced to work as prostitutes in Japanese military brothels during World War II.

Rapes were committed by Wehrmacht forces on Jewish women and girls during the Invasion of Poland in September 1939; they were also committed against Polish women and girls during mass executions carried out primarily by the Selbstschutz units, which were accompanied by Wehrmacht soldiers and on territory under the administration of the German military; the rapes were carried out before shooting female captives.

Wiki-Wartime sexual violence

What does God have to say about rape?

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:14-18

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

God condones wartime sexual violence and captive wives?


posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:04 AM
What kind of punishment has God advocated for rapists?

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Capital punishment for the rapist and the victim. No trial.

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Required the rapist to marry the victim because he took her virginity.

Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2 Samuel 12:11-14

Where do you stand on slavery?

Slavery was known in almost every ancient civilization, and society, including Sumer, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient India, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Caliphate, the Hebrew kingdoms in Palestine, and the pre-Columbian civilizations of the Americas. Such institutions included debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.


Today slavery is outlawed in every country. The idea that one man can own another as property is appalling to most of us. When one thinks about treating others as they want to be treated, and apply it to slavery, we all come to the same conclusion. Nobody wants to be the possesion of somebody else. We each value our life, liberties, and pursuits of happiness. Many believe these are our inalienable God given rights. In todays society we not only value our own rights, but the rights of others also.

What does God have to say about slavery?

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Leviticus 25:44-46

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
Exodus 21:2-11

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:20-21

Apparantly God supports slavery and has established rules for it.

Surely this atrocious practice isn't condoned in the New Testament.

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Ephesians 6:5

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1 Timothy 6:1-2

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:47-48

Where do you stand on murder?

What does God have to say about murder?

Kill people who don't listen to Priests. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill witches. (Exodus 22:17)
Kill fortunetellers. (Leviticus 20:27)
Kill homosexuals. (Leviticus 20:13)
Kill nonbelievers. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Kill followers of other religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
Kill false prophets. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, Zechariah 13:3)
Kill an entire town if anyone there worships another God. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
Kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
Kill people working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 31:12-15)
Kill sons of sinners. (Isaiah 14:21)
Kill in the name of the Lord. (Jeremiah 48:10)

Death for striking parents. (Exodus 21:15)
Death for cursing parents. (Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20)
Death for fornication. (Leviticus 21:9)
Death for adultery. (Leviticus 20:10)
Death for blasphemy. (Leviticus 24:10-16)
Death to followers of other religions. (Exodus 22:19)

Looks like he set up some strict rules. Do you follow any of them? Do you support all of them? Do you support some and not others? If so, why?

edit on 26-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:04 AM
Has God ever personally killed someone?

Since large numbers of people often end up as meaningless statistics, consider the rough guide below:

20 million - In the global flood this figure is just over the maximum estimated human population before agriculture. Approximately the current population of Australia. It would take about a decade for this many Americans to die of natural causes. Actually, absolute terms aren't useful for this one as it was near-enough 100% of the population - imagine 7 billion people being killed should God decide to pull this one again.

185,000 - Assyrian soldiers killed while sleeping. This is greater than the entire multi-national coalition force at the peak of the Iraq War - so imagine losing that entire force in their sleep in one night. By comparison, the bloodiest battle (on a single day) in modern history would be the first day of the Battle of the Somme, where 20,000 BEF troops were killed. 185,000 is also the equivalent of 9/11 every single day for two months.

70,000 - Assorted Israelites, incidentally the same number of people who claimed to be Jedi in the 2001 Australian census. This is approximately the athletics capacity of Wembley Stadium.

50,070 - Assuming the higher figure, this is not far off the capacity of Yankee Stadium. Sports stadiums are useful comparisons because they're areas where we have photographs of that many people in close proximity and you can see how many it represents.

24,000 - Slightly higher than the capacity of Madison Square Garden for pro wrestling.

Of course, many of these numbers do pale next to what humans do to each other, and what the planet itself has thrown at us, but it is really the motives (or lack of) that should be truly shocking.

How many people are estimated to die at the Battle of Armageddon?

"The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
—Revelation 14:18-20

Let's assume that 1600 stadia (320 kilometres/320,000metres) is the diameter of the lake of blood. Therefore the radius is 800 stadia or 160km. Let's also assume assume that a horse's bridle is approximately 1.5 metres from the ground, giving us its depth.

We can then calculate the volume of blood using the formula: V = ∏r2.. Using biblical value of ∏ = 3 we get the formula:

3 × 160,000 × 160,000 × 1.5 = 115200000000 cubic metres of blood.

1 cubic metre = 1000 litres

25600000000 × 1000 = 115200000000000

If we divide this number by the average amount of blood in a human body, 5.5 litres:
115,200,000,000,000 ∕ 5.5 = 20,945,454,545,500

So we find that according to scripture, at a bare minimum according to one interpretation, God will kill approximately 20,945,454,545,500 people. That's in the trillions.

However, since it says flows and not pools, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that a river was formed. Assuming they measured the the blood-flow using actual horses, and a horse is 1 metre across.

320,000 x 1 x 1.5 = 480,000 cubic metres of blood.

480,000 x 1000 = 480,000,000

480,000,000 / 5.5 = 87,272,727

So, in another interpretation, God will kill a minimum of 87,272,727 to produce a horse bridle high blood-flow.

RationalWiki-Examples of God personally killing people

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
1 Samuel 6:19

And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart. And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark. And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
2 Samuel 6:3-7

And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the Lord, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the Lord, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.
1 Kings 20:35-36

As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
Hosea 9:11-16

And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Ezekiel 9:5-7

And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Exodus 12:29-30

And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
Leviticus 26:21-22


posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:05 AM

Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Isaiah 13:15-18

Is it just me or does God seem to have an anger problem?

There are many more passages like these to be found.

Where do you stand on human sacrifice?

Human sacrifice is the act of killing one or more human beings, usually as an offering to a deity, as part of a religious ritual. Its typology closely parallels the various practices of ritual slaughter of animals and of religious sacrifice in general. Human sacrifice has been practiced in various cultures throughout history. Victims were typically ritually killed in a manner that was supposed to please or appease gods, spirits or the deceased, for example as a propitiatory offering, or as a retainer sacrifice when the King's servants are killed in order for them to continue to serve their master in the next life. Closely related practices found in some tribal societies are cannibalism and headhunting.[1] By the Iron Age, with the associated developments in religion (the Axial Age), human sacrifice was becoming less common throughout the Old World, and came to be looked down upon as barbaric in pre-modern times (Classical Antiquity).
In modern times, even the practice of animal sacrifice has virtually disappeared from all major religions (or has been re-cast in terms of ritual slaughter), and human sacrifice has become extremely rare. Most religions condemn the practice, and present-day secular laws treat it as murder. In a society which condemns human sacrifice, the term ritual murder is used.

Wiki-Human Sacrifice

This one should be a no brainer! What reasons could we have for this one? Would you ever sacrifice another human being, for any reason?

What does God have to say about ritual murder?

The story of Abraham and Isaac:

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 22:1-18

Can you imagine what Abraham must have been going through emotionally? Luckily for him, this was all a test. Who would test somebody like this? Would you ever sacrifice your child if the Lord God commanded it?

The story of Jephthah and his daughter:

Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon. And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands. And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon. And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
Judges 11:29-40

God accepts human sacrifice in exchange for favors.


posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:05 AM
Story of Josiah:

And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the Lord unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense. And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
1 Kings 13:1-2

And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem. And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the Lord your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah; But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the Lord in Jerusalem. Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord. And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.
2 Kings 23:20-25

More human sacrifice.

Where do you stand on free will?

If you were omnipotent would you manipulate the free will of others? Would you project your desires and emotions into the minds of your fellow man, to influence a desired outcome? If you worked for the greater good?

Does God ever manipulate the free will of others?

And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God. And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
Exodus 3:17-19

Why is God so sure? Is it because he is omniscient?

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 4:21

It was because he is omnipotent, and used his power to will Pharaoh against him. Why would he do that? Especially if he sent Moses there specifically to lead his people out of Egypt, and into the promised land. When God hardened Pharaohs heart, he manipulated his free will to make his own choice. And then he punished the Egyptians for it with the plagues.

Wiki-Plagues of Egypt

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

People who don't believe in God have their chances of ever accepting Christ significantly reduced because God deludes their minds to follow lies. Why does God turn people away like this? How is this not a stumbling block?

So, how did you compare to God?

It doesn't take a psyche student to figure out that God has some pretty serious character flaws. Do you reflect or support these traits in your own life? Are you a better person than the kind in support of rape and murder etc.? How is it possible we as humans are morally superior to God?

Obviously there is a lot more to say on the subject than just what I've looked at.

edit on 26-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:18 AM
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Sheep are lost without their shepherd... some might say clueless

You've been workin on this for a while eh...

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 03:37 AM
One of the best of these I have seen. Well done.

I often wonder if Moses did in fact hear God or if he just made it all up.

I can never condone the killing of children but it does seem to please the Almighty.

Dear God, what are you.


posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 04:53 AM
Well done on the Post, it's a bit inconvenient for those who say we should worship the word of their Lord when the words are shown for what they are, MORE OF THE SAME.

Sadly the fundamentals of human nature has changed little in the last 2000 years.

Yet why should it, no supernatural beings guiding us, just the same old God's claiming to love us if we kill everyone else that challenges them or threatens the wealth, comfort and security of the priests who manipulate the beliefs which manipulate those that follow them.

Think of how much money has been donated to churches from parents who received children from Nun's who took them from teenagers.

There has been a very unbalanced reality within organized religion for a very long time.

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 04:55 AM
Your post screams lack of understanding, research, and likely failure to even read half the books which contain the details of the character you are criticising.

I hope to not spend much time on this/reply again.

The scriptures that make up the bible in English are translated in a sometimes flawed way by people who are either dumb or have some illicit cause. We do have many manuscripts though so it's not much of an issue to see what the scriptures are saying if you care to look up the greek or hebrew on the many resources available. Even with a "corrupted bible" (bet God could even use a JW bible to preach the gospel) the basis of truth and knowing of God should be apparent to "those who have eyes that see".
James 1:27 says perfect and undefiled religion before God is to visit the orphans and widows in there infliction and not the become stained by the ways of the world.
Lol the whole point in these 66 books is for the truth of God, who told us that all of God's commands and ordinances are bound by the number one commandment, love for God. To love God is do unto others as you want for you, his commands are to love others as you want to be, so I bet some you love God whether you realize it or not. To fear God is to love justice, and its also to hate evil according to the bible.

I got off track a bit I think sorry.

So where you are talking about the scripture that says who ever is raped will be married to the rapist, the Hebrew word is translated as seduced or taken in every other instance in the bibles that translate it as rape in that instance, but many bibles more properly translate it as seduce or or take in English instead of rape.

Even that may seem peculiar until you realize that this law is about if people are found in the act, and word would get around and this lass would now be undesirable for marriage (one reason, among others, being the first son inherited the most under Jew law). Also the parents of a daughter depended on the dowry of marriage to supplement there usually poor farm life, this law made it so ma and pa still got there retirement fund in a case where daughter and seducers actions could be deadly to the parents. The dowry was paid, and the girl who likely would otherwise be alone her whole life might have a husband if the Father approved (logically under the fact the Father wouldn't let his daughter go to an abusive home despite her desire to be in a relationship (hopefully we all understand this problem..)

God isn't cool with rape, should be obvious by the fact he orders death to him but I'll let it slide since I've met Christians who are also misled and I doubt 99% have ever entertained the idea of checking the Hebrew or greek lol.

When it says to take the women when they capture them and all that... there's not really any building materials to build prisons for those they capture. I don't see how that's rape, they may have been in forced into servitude but it's better then death and that likely may been a more prosperous course of action for people who were likely already in servitude but now being under Jew law, they could be freed after a certain amount of years of work, and even had to be paid a wage at at certain point. After many years they could save enough to buy there freedom and a piece of land under circumstances not known to be available among there previous generations.

Lol God never condoned human sacrifice, your logic doesn't seem clear to me on this one. The whole point of that writing is the beauty and length of one man's faith that God could raise the dead (Abraham was told his first son would be the Father of many generations, and he trusted God could raise him back up to complete the promise he made) on top of the obedience/love to do anything God commanded.

God never let him sacrifice his son because it was never what he wanted, this is a huge foreshadowing, God says he will provide the sacrifice and a ram is seen caught in a bush nearby. In reality this is a flash forward of God offering his son as a sacrifice..

This is likely far from being a good explanation but this God stuff is all pretty crazy lol and most Christians seem to understand jack #; too many dumb/lazy Christians and motivated/knowledgeable "haters" I just felt like I had to create an account and clear up some of the fog here. I kinda Wunna say your post is foolish and doesn't really deserve me to list citations and examples and what not but maybe I'm just in a bad mood and lazy/indifferent. Maybe I'll edit in the future if that orion is available to add references and what not.

Anyways thank you if you actually think you are helping people and not just being negative.

I blame the Christians for misconstruing God more than I blame you, even the bible says God is hated thanks to how people misrepresent him and his truth. They'll be judged much harsher for it too.

"For the name of God is shamed among the Gentiles because of you, as it is said in the holy Writings." Romans 2:24

edit on 26-9-2014 by puffinkron247 because: vital spelling correction

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 05:18 AM
I think I forgot to mention that the other word translated as rape where the punishment is death is always translated as rape into English. Seems like an easy case to solve (seduced being translated into rape incrrectly based on the translators irrational belief God hates you if # before marriage, "just look, even for a rapist victim God wants them to be married because they had sex." It's some really sick #, but it does reflect how human and flawed these people are. ...not much different then others. They should be better though! I hate what's going on with these people and there twisted minds and thoughts.

Anyways there's much you're going to misunderstand when you don't know God (doesn't take a bible), or the bible (even in English). I love how atheists brag about how they've read the bible after going to skeptics sites and God bashing sites.

Can you honestly say you compiled all your info and criticism im this post after reading and studying the bible, it's historical backdrop or cultural setting?

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 06:06 AM
a reply to: puffinkron247

You tried to defend one small part of the OP without anything to back it up and just claimed that all of the learned scholars, for all of the versions of the bible, translated the word wrong because, well, you say so.

But your find with slaughtering all the male children and young women who have had sex because, well you know, they didn't have prisons.

Dear God, where is your humanity?


posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 06:13 AM
a reply to: puffinkron247

Yes, I have read the Bible. In fact I was a Christian once. I'm familiar with church, at least the one I went to. There are a lot of fond memories and good people. I have looked at the Bible from multiple perspectives including objectively. Yes I have studied its historical backdrop and cultural setting to an extent, but am no expert. This thread is letting the Bible speak for itself. I am fully aware that there are positive versus and that it isn't all entirely hellfire and brimstone. I am just pointing out the passages that show that God is, or was at some point in time, ok with behavior we find intolerable today. These characteristics of God don't just go away because of historical context, or because it's better to focus on the positive ones. The words are there plain as day. They are a part of who God is. And they are inconsistent with the view of God most people preach about. Come to your own conclusions why that is.

edit on 26-9-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 08:55 AM
a reply to: puffinkron247

I love how atheists brag about how they've read the bible after going to skeptics sites and God bashing sites.

I wasn't going to say anything in this thread, but you had to bring atheists into it. I seriously doubt you even know what an atheist is, except what you've been told, or read that confirms your bias. Have you ever stopped to consider that some of us evil atheists may know that bible better than you do, because we were once xtians? Some of us for decades?

I know the excuse there are many translation errors in the bible, and we heathens just don't understand that. Well, if it takes a frickin Phd to truly understand it. Does that not raise a red flag for you? It does for me. I would think the great Jehovah could have made the whole thing so simple, even I could understand it. Cause I'm not too bright, you know?

But instead, we have Phd's all over the world, who have spent their life studying the bible, and even they can't agree on what it really says. It's no wonder xtianity is heavily divided into countless denominations. You guys don't really understand it, either, but you want to correct us.

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 09:25 AM
a reply to: pheonix358

As per Your Moishe (Moses) thought.. What if He only turned in 2 slabs of concrete when there were 3 slabs and a scroll?//

.. Abraham must be proud, Having ALL His children fighting amongst themselves..

Who let the "dogma" out, who, who who?...

What if 'He" is a "She"? Wouldn't that make more sense? You know if One were to 'sex' The Creator, Hunab Ku? In ALL My 'time' it was the female that gives 'Life' and the male that takes it.. Add that to entering Yin, The Devine Feminine and it is a "no brainer"


P.S. I stand to pee this incarnate.

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 09:53 AM
a reply to: JimNasium

Who let the "dogma" out, who, who who?...

LOL. Right?

And, who is this "one" God, that is supposedly so abundantly rich that has only "one" begotten son, with only one life to give, one path, one chance, etc.,

edit on 26-9-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:34 AM
a reply to: puffinkron247

the Hebrew word is translated as seduced or taken in every other instance in the bibles that translate it as rape in that instance, but many bibles more properly translate it as seduce or or take in English instead of rape.

This is true, I have seen it in bibles translated in Spanish. But it opens a can of worms.

God, knowing the future, should have known that his "word" would have been mistranslated and should have known what to do to prevent it or at least come right now and fix it. After all, it's the only thing he left.

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 11:38 AM
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

People repeatedly make the same mistakes when looking at the OT.

Things that God allowed, by giving us freewill, 3500 years ago still happen today, but we demonize the OT because it tells the truth about man.

Just because Moses gave us laws pertaining to slavery does not mean that God, who gave the 10 commandments permits slavery. What it means is slavery was common and slaves were mistreated. It was not God's will to effect man's freewill to have slaves but only to protect slaves from horrific conditions.

In the law of God your sins are punishable by spiritual death. In the law of Moses your sins were punishable by physical death. Christ came to replace the punishment of death with Grace and rebirth of both the spiritual and physical.

When God kills in the OT, it is always righteous. Who does God ordered killed?

In Egypt he hardened the heart of Pharoh until all the firstborn of Egypt were dead. That sounds evil but did you ever ask why? Could God be justified? This doesn't happen until after Pharoh ordered all male Israelite child killed, but Moses was saved in the basket. What is God guilty of? He rescued slaves that were being treated inhumanly, and ordered the firstborn sons dead as a punishment for Egypts willingness to sacrifice every male Israelite child. Im going to let God be justified here.

God only takes away the freewill, hardens the hearts, of those whom he has prepared for punishment. He took away Pharaohs freewill because of what Pharoh did with his freewill. Justified.

God Ordered David son's death only after he had an affair with a married women. To cover it up David sent this man, a righteous man by all accounts, to die at the front of the war, causing many unnecessary casualties. This was all to cover up David's adultery, wich by law was punishable by death. Still God is justified.

God also called for killing the Cananites. Why? The OT says they were practicing human sacrifice, believing they obtained demonic powers through thier murderous rituals. If thier was a modern day cult of people performing ritual human sacrifice, would we not give them the death penalty even today? Again God is justified.

Allowing Moses to write laws that pertain to the freewill practices of men does not mean God condones such practices. We write laws today that pertain to freewill practices of men, that are not condoned in scripture. Laws that must remain until we are prepared to live by God's standards.

Add - Rape was not allowed in the OT. The virgin women and children became slaves. If an Israelite took a slave as a wife, had sexual relations with her, he was to treat her as a wife.

Both the Koran and the bible suggest when two people have sex they should get married, even if rape. Why?

This is not as much a legal requirement as it is a test. The father of the women always maintains the last say, as men have authority to cancel thier wives and children's oaths according to scripture.

Since the punishment for premarital sex is marriage we find out the truth from the women. If the women rejects marriage when speaking to her father, her father knows it was rape, if she accepts marriage it was consensual and the two should be married per law.

This law of marriage, coupled with the father having the final say, protected women. All premarital sex was considered rape, the law of marriage protected them from the law of death.

In the law we don't want young lovers stoned to death for consumating the marriage before its time. But we do want to protect our women.

Is your strong delusion of what the OT says getting any clearer?
edit on 26-9-2014 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:06 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25

It was not God's will to effect man's freewill to have slaves but only to protect slaves from horrific conditions.

meaning he didnt fix the problem just its symptoms. sounds really lazy...or maybe just opportunistic.

"lets not cure cancer, lets make a business out of it."
edit on 26-9-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:31 PM

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: sacgamer25

It was not God's will to effect man's freewill to have slaves but only to protect slaves from horrific conditions.

meaning he didnt fix the problem just its symptoms. sounds really lazy...or maybe just opportunistic.

"lets not cure cancer, lets make a business out of it."

I don't always agree with the things God has allowed men to do, but this is his creation and he decided to give man freewill, even to kill each other.

Maybe you can create intelligent life from nothing and do it better?

posted on Sep, 26 2014 @ 12:35 PM
a reply to: sacgamer25

I don't always agree with the things God has allowed men to do, but this is his creation and he decided to give man freewill, even to kill each other.

Maybe you can create intelligent life from nothing and do it better?

maybe i could if gods were real and i was one. or maybe i would just destroy all gods and allow humans to manage their own destinies.

so you are prepared to grant this god of yours complete amnesty no matter the crime?
edit on 26-9-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)

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