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You write like an educated person without the experience of life wisdom. Just mathematics. I have experiences of synchronization with a life path that is of to myself gf a destiny of the soul. Carl Jung would understand this. Some are blind and will never feel it, some will read life properly and understand the journey of the soul.
Well, its like you said. Only the dead know what happens. Are you dead? The only way to be a true contrarian in this case would be to cause your own death, so that you can know what does indeed happen.
I have read cases where the person laying on the operating tale has their spirit float upward and later they described items which were on top of cabinets that the doctors had to use a step ladder or footstool to confirm. Maybe this could just be called an out of body experience, like those that happen to those who are not near death, only this one is caused by being near death, and the experiences where they see their preferred diety, are something different.
It's too bad really, all that writing, and like most politicians, you didn't actually say anything. I can only hope one day you have an experience which opens your eyes to the fact that most things in this reality are not what they're perceived to be.
1 askes LesMisanthrope are you absolutely objectively sure this is not the a dream scape or part of the afterlife already for Eternal souls? How can you know for sure?
As far as I know we can't say without a doubt that we are aware and can accurately measure all forms of energy. Also I'm not aware of any studies that have been undertaken which measure energy transformation at the point of death.Although, I'm aware about a test that was inadequately performed by Dr. Duncan MacDougall at moment of death. However, that dealt with weight of the body and is dependent on the precision of the device and other factors.
Therefore IMO and based on the lack of adequate research done in specifically in regards to energy at the moment of death, I couldn't adequately state without a doubt what happens at death.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
...yes I do know with sufficient accuracy what happens to us after death
What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
Such reports are very common among people who are comatose or who have near-death experiences (NDE). I know of several reports by patients in my practice, and I have spoken to neurosurgeons who have had patients with experiences that can be confirmed.
Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations. From a scientific standpoint, I think that we need to consider these personal reports as real evidence, of varying credibility.
Materialists hate these accounts, because they (especially the corroborated ones) are very difficult to square with a materialist picture of reality. The materialist explanations, on the other hand, are generally baloney -- vaguely gesturing to endorphins and the like. Another thing that materialists hate is that the public loves this stuff and believes it -- it resonates in a way that abstract critiques of materialism fail to do.
The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn.
I think the one opinion that I think is not reasonable at this point in time is the absolute blanket statement that NDEs are illusions. There’s just too strong evidence forthcoming from my research as well as the research of others. I mean, by the time you have near-death experiencers with crystal-clear consciousness, the out-of-body observation seemed to be overwhelmingly correct in both prospective and retrospective studies, near-death experiences in those totally blind from birth, near atypical near-death experiences even while under general anesthesia, and it goes on and on. I think that’s pretty thoroughly refuted…
Near Death Experiences
“For NDEs to be accepted as an illusion then each and every one of all of the following must be true for all NDEs.” Process that for a minute. That’s a pretty strong statement. Each and every one of all of the following has to be true in every case.
• The predominately crystal-clear consciousness during NDEs is always an illusion.
• Accurate OOB observations (out-of-body observations) during NDEs must all be false.
• The heightened sense reported during NDEs, including visual NDEs in the blind in those blind from birth-they all must be false.
• NDEs reported under general anesthesia, even with accurate OOB observations, they all must be false.
• Life reviews during NDEs with awareness of prior life experiences they forgot and awareness of how others felt that interacted with them, those must all be false.
• The 94% of NDEs that encounter only deceased individuals that they had previously known on Earth and that that vastly higher percentage than observed in the normal state of altered consciousness, that must be explainable by some yet unknown means. [So we're saying you have to explain the fact that near-death experiencers only see deceased relatives that they've known on Earth. But why?]
• The consistency of the content from these NDE reports, both from very young children who are not socialized, under five years old, and the consistency with that in the content of NDEs of older children and of adults and of elderly-the consistency of all those groups. That must be explainable by yet some unknown means.
• We also have to explain the consistency of the content from NDEs around the world, including cultures very different from Western cultures. All that must be explainable.”
• Finally, he throws in one more that gets to the meaning issue, and that is that “the consistent understanding that NDEs encounter about the connection and unity of all in an afterlife, the meaning and purpose of life that they seem to consistently come away with, all that must be explainable by some means that we don’t have any explanation for as of yet.”
Dr. Jeffrey Long Responds to “NDEs are an Illusion”
Vicki Noratuk was born blind. In this C2C interview Vicki describes what it was like to experience sight for the first time. Then she goes on to describe encounters with Jesus, moving through hellish and heavenly realms, and being told she couldn't stay on the other side because she was to become a mother and teach unconditional love and forgiveness. Jesus, according to Vicki, also told her to tell others about him and her experience: "let them know of this day and tell them that I AM"..
NDE of Vicky Nuratuk - Blind from Birth
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
What’s more, the tales of what occurs in these dreams resemble the religions of their culture, complete with specific deities unique to different religions, i.e. a Christian does not see Vishnu and a Hindu does not see Christ, showing that there is either many types of afterlives, or perhaps, that it is merely their neurobiology, ever formed by their upbringing, affecting the outcome as it might a dream.
originally posted by: notkirk
Stop arguing about nothing.
Sorry, but not true. Your statement is misleading, if not entirely ignorant. While it's evident you're only serving to drive home your point, it's also clear that you've only glossed over the research. Any initial reading of the subject matter would quickly show that this does not happen only to religious types.
You seem to take the liberty of speaking in absolute truths on a subject matter that frankly, you can't know much about. Mostly because, well, you're alive. But don't fret, even those smarter than you and me who have been researching this phenomenon don't understand it. Doctors in the field, who are witnessing these accounts first hand, are confused because they can absolutely speak about the condition of the patient at the time of their experience. Dead. The difference is they don't seem to be as dismissive and judgmental of these folks as you come across. Thing is, all there is to go on right now are the so called "tales" of these people. Unless you'd like to try dying yourself to see what happens....
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: PhotonEffect
I looked through my quote and did not find where I said that near-death experiences only happens to religious types. I am speaking particularly about those who said they witnessed an afterlife or a god during their experience. Also, how is it clear that I only glossed over the research?
I am constantly told that I cannot possibly know what happens to us after death.
One day two monks were walking along a riverbank. “I would like to be a fish. They are so peaceful and happy!” the one monk exclaimed.
“You are not a fish,” his friend said. “How do you know whether or not the fish are enjoying themselves?”
“You are not me,” the first monk said. “How do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?”