A Realistic Afterlife

a reply to: LoneGunMan

You write like an educated person without the experience of life wisdom. Just mathematics. I have experiences of synchronization with a life path that is of to myself gf a destiny of the soul. Carl Jung would understand this. Some are blind and will never feel it, some will read life properly and understand the journey of the soul.

I’m not too good at math. I’ve been around the world a few times and have gathered many experiences. Reading life involves going out and experiencing it, not confining oneself to one or two authors in the comfort of one’s home.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Well, its like you said. Only the dead know what happens. Are you dead? The only way to be a true contrarian in this case would be to cause your own death, so that you can know what does indeed happen.

Maybe the irony was over your head. The dead cannot know anything. They are dead. So no the dead cannot know what happens. The living, however, who are capable of knowing, can observe, study, and experiment with what happens after death. We can do autopsies, scientific tests, cadaver farms etc.

I have read cases where the person laying on the operating tale has their spirit float upward and later they described items which were on top of cabinets that the doctors had to use a step ladder or footstool to confirm. Maybe this could just be called an out of body experience, like those that happen to those who are not near death, only this one is caused by being near death, and the experiences where they see their preferred diety, are something different.

Here’s a large list of near death accounts. Very few of them mention deities. I gather most who speak about deities are resorting to a sort of confirmation bias, so as to further their dogmatic views.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It's too bad really, all that writing, and like most politicians, you didn't actually say anything. I can only hope one day you have an experience which opens your eyes to the fact that most things in this reality are not what they're perceived to be.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

1 askes LesMisanthrope are you absolutely objectively sure this is not the a dream scape or part of the afterlife already for Eternal souls? How can you know for sure?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I'm agnostic and don't have any religious bias what so ever. As a matter of fact, I think all religions are B$. My main reason for being agnostic is simply that we don't have the scientific tools to capture or comprehend the first of everything or how anything came from nothing.

However, our body is a living organism that is composed of energy and we require energy in a form or calories to continue to exist in the perceived alive state. We also have a little law that states that energy can't be created nor destroyed.

To some extent we are a system of energy. As we die all that energy in our body doesn't just disapear it transforms.

As far as I know we can't say without a doubt that we are aware and can accurately measure all forms of energy. Also I'm not aware of any studies that have been undertaken which measure energy transformation at the point of death.Although, I'm aware about a test that was inadequately performed by Dr. Duncan MacDougall at moment of death. However, that dealt with weight of the body and is dependent on the precision of the device and other factors.

Therefore IMO and based on the lack of adequate research done in specifically in regards to energy at the moment of death, I couldn't adequately state without a doubt what happens at death.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

It's too bad really, all that writing, and like most politicians, you didn't actually say anything. I can only hope one day you have an experience which opens your eyes to the fact that most things in this reality are not what they're perceived to be.

I said plenty, but like most consumers, you’ve forgotten what doesn’t instantly satisfy you.

a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

1 askes LesMisanthrope are you absolutely objectively sure this is not the a dream scape or part of the afterlife already for Eternal souls? How can you know for sure?

First I have to have a reason to believe such a thing. Do you have any?

a reply to: interupt42

As far as I know we can't say without a doubt that we are aware and can accurately measure all forms of energy. Also I'm not aware of any studies that have been undertaken which measure energy transformation at the point of death.Although, I'm aware about a test that was inadequately performed by Dr. Duncan MacDougall at moment of death. However, that dealt with weight of the body and is dependent on the precision of the device and other factors.

Therefore IMO and based on the lack of adequate research done in specifically in regards to energy at the moment of death, I couldn't adequately state without a doubt what happens at death.

The abiotic and biotic decomposition of organisms is well known and documented. There are 4 or 5 cadaver farms in the US alone where the study of human remains is thoroughly researched and examined.

The “energy” dissipates into the environment through many chemical, gas, bacterial and environmental processes. It is well documented and able for your perusal.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I do due to the fact that so much of reality here is kept top secret from the masses. This encourages my intuition that there is much more going on and that some are led to believe certain aspects of LIFE are fantasy as to prevent their minds from seeing further. Over long time periods mankind has provided certain rituals associated with death ceremonies. Wherever these techniques were started they somehow managed to make it this far as being a significant part of the human based reality. Not to mention all the compiled religious data associated with Metaphysical reality...

LesMisanthrope 1 is not challenging your belief system to clarify, it is your WILL to walk the paths you choose this is my subjective analysis based on my experiences within the phases of LIFE and DEATH within EXISTENCE...

NAMASTE*******

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
...yes I do know with sufficient accuracy what happens to us after death

What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin

TPTB hate NDE accounts and do everything they can to ridicule them simply because it is clear proof of life after death.

Such reports are very common among people who are comatose or who have near-death experiences (NDE). I know of several reports by patients in my practice, and I have spoken to neurosurgeons who have had patients with experiences that can be confirmed.

Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations. From a scientific standpoint, I think that we need to consider these personal reports as real evidence, of varying credibility.

Materialists hate these accounts, because they (especially the corroborated ones) are very difficult to square with a materialist picture of reality. The materialist explanations, on the other hand, are generally baloney -- vaguely gesturing to endorphins and the like. Another thing that materialists hate is that the public loves this stuff and believes it -- it resonates in a way that abstract critiques of materialism fail to do.

The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn.

Near-Death Experiences

I think the one opinion that I think is not reasonable at this point in time is the absolute blanket statement that NDEs are illusions. There’s just too strong evidence forthcoming from my research as well as the research of others. I mean, by the time you have near-death experiencers with crystal-clear consciousness, the out-of-body observation seemed to be overwhelmingly correct in both prospective and retrospective studies, near-death experiences in those totally blind from birth, near atypical near-death experiences even while under general anesthesia, and it goes on and on. I think that’s pretty thoroughly refuted…

Near Death Experiences

“For NDEs to be accepted as an illusion then each and every one of all of the following must be true for all NDEs.” Process that for a minute. That’s a pretty strong statement. Each and every one of all of the following has to be true in every case.

• The predominately crystal-clear consciousness during NDEs is always an illusion.
• Accurate OOB observations (out-of-body observations) during NDEs must all be false.
• The heightened sense reported during NDEs, including visual NDEs in the blind in those blind from birth-they all must be false.
• NDEs reported under general anesthesia, even with accurate OOB observations, they all must be false.
• Life reviews during NDEs with awareness of prior life experiences they forgot and awareness of how others felt that interacted with them, those must all be false.
• The 94% of NDEs that encounter only deceased individuals that they had previously known on Earth and that that vastly higher percentage than observed in the normal state of altered consciousness, that must be explainable by some yet unknown means. [So we're saying you have to explain the fact that near-death experiencers only see deceased relatives that they've known on Earth. But why?]
• The consistency of the content from these NDE reports, both from very young children who are not socialized, under five years old, and the consistency with that in the content of NDEs of older children and of adults and of elderly-the consistency of all those groups. That must be explainable by yet some unknown means.
• We also have to explain the consistency of the content from NDEs around the world, including cultures very different from Western cultures. All that must be explainable.”
• Finally, he throws in one more that gets to the meaning issue, and that is that “the consistent understanding that NDEs encounter about the connection and unity of all in an afterlife, the meaning and purpose of life that they seem to consistently come away with, all that must be explainable by some means that we don’t have any explanation for as of yet.”

Dr. Jeffrey Long Responds to “NDEs are an Illusion”

Vicki Noratuk was born blind. In this C2C interview Vicki describes what it was like to experience sight for the first time. Then she goes on to describe encounters with Jesus, moving through hellish and heavenly realms, and being told she couldn't stay on the other side because she was to become a mother and teach unconditional love and forgiveness. Jesus, according to Vicki, also told her to tell others about him and her experience: "let them know of this day and tell them that I AM"..

NDE of Vicky Nuratuk - Blind from Birth

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
What’s more, the tales of what occurs in these dreams resemble the religions of their culture, complete with specific deities unique to different religions, i.e. a Christian does not see Vishnu and a Hindu does not see Christ, showing that there is either many types of afterlives, or perhaps, that it is merely their neurobiology, ever formed by their upbringing, affecting the outcome as it might a dream.

Sorry, but not true. Your statement is misleading, if not entirely ignorant. While it's evident you're only serving to drive home your point, it's also clear that you've only glossed over the research. Any initial reading of the subject matter would quickly show that this does not happen only to religious types.

You seem to have taken the liberty of speaking in absolute truths on a subject matter that, frankly, you can't know much about. Mostly because, well, you're alive. But don't fret, even those smarter than you and me who have been researching this phenomenon don't understand it. Doctors in the field, who are witnessing these accounts first hand, are confused because they can absolutely speak about the condition of the patient at the time of their experience. Dead. The difference is they don't seem to be as dismissive and judgmental of these folks as you come across.

Thing is, all there is to go on right now are the so called "tales" of these people. Unless you'd like to try dying yourself to see what happens....

Either way, thanks for the life lesson

EDIT TO ADD:
In light of this great thread by SLAYER69 www.abovetopsecret.com... , it's well established that the Ancient Egyptians, easily one of the most (if not THE most) important cultures to mankind in all of human history, believed very deeply in the afterlife. In fact their entire culture operated with this belief system in place. As noted in the thread I referenced, those laborers who worked harder than we could ever understand to erect those pyramids, did so with the promise that they would be securing their place in the eternal afterlife amongst their king. The Ancient Egyptians were no fools- they laid the groundwork for most of our modern day medicine, sciences, arts, mathematics, engineering, chemistry, metallurgy etc... I wonder what they knew about the afterlife.

One thing is certain. Their belief in it drove them to erect some of the most amazing structures this world has ever seen.

originally posted by: notkirk


Stop arguing about nothing.

But isnt this what ATS is all about!

But to your first remark, I think the majority of the posters have fully picked up on the point of this thread. Perhaps you missed it in the first 4 or 5 paragraphs..

Cheers,

a reply to: PhotonEffect

Sorry, but not true. Your statement is misleading, if not entirely ignorant. While it's evident you're only serving to drive home your point, it's also clear that you've only glossed over the research. Any initial reading of the subject matter would quickly show that this does not happen only to religious types.

I looked through my quote and did not find where I said that near-death experiences only happens to religious types. I am speaking particularly about those who said they witnessed an afterlife or a god during their experience. Also, how is it clear that I only glossed over the research? It’s easy to say such a thing, but I wouldn’t mind hearing your reasoning as to why you feel that way. (Something interesting I found was that the near-death experiences of Thai people never involve out of body experiences, and almost always involved two angel type beings guiding them to their God of the dead). I’m fairly certain I sifted through enough research to formulate a fair enough opinion.

You seem to take the liberty of speaking in absolute truths on a subject matter that frankly, you can't know much about. Mostly because, well, you're alive. But don't fret, even those smarter than you and me who have been researching this phenomenon don't understand it. Doctors in the field, who are witnessing these accounts first hand, are confused because they can absolutely speak about the condition of the patient at the time of their experience. Dead. The difference is they don't seem to be as dismissive and judgmental of these folks as you come across. Thing is, all there is to go on right now are the so called "tales" of these people. Unless you'd like to try dying yourself to see what happens....

Out of curiosity, on what grounds do you believe that the dead can know more than the living about death? How can the dead know anything? It seems that the living are the only ones capable of knowing. It also seems you are speaking in absolutes about what you could only ever assume.

There is plenty to go on actually. People die all the time. According to Worldometers.info, there have been over 100,000 deaths today alone. People can witness the death, observe the deceased, study it, autopsy it, scientifically experiment on it, etc.

Perhaps you are not speaking about death at all. It sounds like you are speaking about near-death. Clinically dead does not mean dead. Brain activity can continue up to 40 seconds after clinical death. That is plenty of time for a little dream.

I'm a fence sitter on the idea of an afterlife. If it exists it has nothing to do with our terrestrial religions that serve to divide and keep us ignorant. No matter what the believers here say. My mind is made up on that.

Humanity has only started scratching the surface of our existence over the last couple hundred years. We only discovered other galaxies around 90 years ago and have so far set foot on only one other heavenly body. DNA wasn't discovered until the 1950s. We have much discovery left to accomplish whether its outside the orbit of our planet or inside us. Thinking we've figured everything out already would be doing us all a great disservice.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
Studying the decomposition process is not the same.

Are you suggesting that we know every form of energy and have the equipment to properly analyze all reactions at the atomic and subatomic levels to make it a scientific fact of what happens after death?

I don't recall ever coming accross any scientific consensus in regards to what happens in the so called afterlife nor even to many studies in the subject?

Perhaps you could point me into the peer reviewed studies and consesus on this subject from the scientifc community?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: PhotonEffect

I looked through my quote and did not find where I said that near-death experiences only happens to religious types. I am speaking particularly about those who said they witnessed an afterlife or a god during their experience. Also, how is it clear that I only glossed over the research?

Under the guise of speaking about NDEs as a whole, you seem to only reference these experiences as religiously biased tales, nothing more. Yours is not a critique from an unbiased, objective viewpoint, even though to an unwitting reader it may seem that way. It's clear that you have not done your research because if you had, you'd know that prior religious belief and prior knowledge of NDEs does not have an appreciable effect on the likelihood of having an NDE. In fact there are repeated accounts of folks who have turned to religion or spirituality after the fact...

Whatever the experience is, even if just a lucid dream, it seems to have quite an impact on the lives of those who have gone through it. The research done on these subjects bears it out, as you would know if you read about it.

Have you ever had a life changing dream?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I am constantly told that I cannot possibly know what happens to us after death.

The thing is, how can anyone else know what you can know..? Such a statement is a testament of the sayer's own limitations than yours.

There was even a Zen-koan about this;

One day two monks were walking along a riverbank. “I would like to be a fish. They are so peaceful and happy!” the one monk exclaimed.

“You are not a fish,” his friend said. “How do you know whether or not the fish are enjoying themselves?”

“You are not me,” the first monk said. “How do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?”

This koan is flawed, because the other monk is not CLAIMING anything (let alone that he knows that the other monk doesn't know), he is simply ASKING "HOW".

"How do you know?", he asks. The other monk should answer by an explanation of the exact method he uses for knowing. He might not even be doubting, he just wants to know the technique, and the other monk completely misunderstands him!

But this is how people usually work, though - they impose their own limitations on everyone. Atheists ridicule people, who know, feel and experience the existence of the intelligence that created us, deniers (who falsely call themselves 'skeptics') ridicule people, who have actually seen and experienced UFOs, spaceships, Extra-Terrestrial beings and whatnot, conservative, brainwashed sheeple ridicule "conspiracy theorists" (or people who they label as such), and so on.

It's annoying, but it's a fact of this world.

I think even Plato's cave parable was an example of this. People, who have never set foot outside a certain building, will tell world-travelers, that only the building exists, and that they are crazy, if they say otherwise. The travelers can't possibly know what it might be like outside the building, if something existed there..

A dark mind, spreading its darkness.

A narrow mind, trying to shrink other minds.

A pathetic experience, best to be pitied. Such is the tiny life of most people on Terra today, whose smallness is too much for them.

I tend to share the idea that it is more constructive to focus on reality here and now, and live it fully, then to spend time focusing on “what may happen after death”. All the while, reminding myself that some people are currently in a here and now that is filled with pain and suffering, so delving into that doesn’t seem to be such a good idea for them.

-And others that have a good life, but seem to be caught in the coping mechanism of focusing on future visions and invisible realities, unable to let go and turn focus back on earthly and physical reality.

There were key moments in my life where I came close to death, and very realistic dreams in which I died.

My life went through huge transformations after those. It went from a painful and terrible beginning, evolving to a life that frankly, is beyond my earlier hopes and abilities to imagine. I am quite blessed…..

One day I thought- what if those weren’t dreams? What if … the moments I got so close to being killed, I actually WAS? But my consciousness simply slipped out of one reality, into another, the lines blurring at the moment of impact?

What if the people I knew who died (from my experience) simply went on with their life, (with a big “whew! That was close!”) and are interacting with a me right now, made changes in their life they wanted to do, but it was not in sync with what those around them wanted to live, so they switched to a reality in which the people around could do with the changes?

This here might be the afterlife. Advances in science and technology may be evident indicators of reality changes- I may be in a different universe than I was in ten years ago.
Perhaps, as some belief systems imply, we never die. Not for our own consciousness… unless of course we choose to experience that on a deep level, in which case it still isn’t definitive. We’d just experience being reborn in a new form.

It might be all one big dream. Hell might be difficult situations of living, heaven might be pleasant situations, religions might be mapping out how to create one and not the other.
As long as that is possible- that there might not be a clear cut line defining life and death, life and “after life”….there might be just continual change, process, then I feel left with the same possibility: totally experience the moment, whatever it is.


….but then I am reminded again, some people might still be building their heaven, so focusing on their imaginary blue prints could be what’s right for them, as an individual consciousness. In hope they don’t get swallowed up in the plans, and forget to notice when they have been manifest!

That took way too much paragraphs in what could be described in a few sentences. "i beleive NDEs are BS. You die, you rot, then you're remembered a while. The end."

Of course you didnt use terms like it is your beleif. You just speak as if your subjective oppinions on NDE are solid facts despite misrepresenting them down to a narrow feild saying that there are not ones that are cross cultural or cross religious when this is not true although less common and is your personal interpretation.

a reply to: Jesuslives4u shouldnt you be explaining why jesus is often a white man like in artwork when biblically this would be way wrong? Also ive heard few where the one they think is jesus say their name is jesus. Its just their presumption of interpretation of a long haired white person who is kind to them.

You know, I continually find that, if you are presenting an angle of perception that is unfamiliar for your listeners,
then it sometimes helps to take them by the hand and make the trip with them, from what they are familiar with, through to the intended point. It can get lengthy, as the mind needs time to accustom to the changing landscapes. But it helps them process slowly and arrive unscathed.



Sometimes, if the perception is not only unfamiliar, but their current perceptions are purposely geared against that destination or view, no matter how short and sweet, or gentle and long the trip may be, they will jump ship before ever getting it.