Exploited by an employer then refused a good reference...revenge is sweet.

a reply to: grainofsand

Nothing you say will ever justify that you allowed your kid to work illegal hours and allowed him to break the laws you now trying to use for your benefit, just because money was/is involved, you as the parent failed to protect him by allowing him to work knowing perfectly well that he was breaking the law.

The employer should be fined because they also broke the law, but you should not get a free pass out of this, you were a bad parent, take it in whatever way you want to take it, but you are the first one to blame in this case. You should also be fined for allowing a child to be exploited just because he was earning more money than legally possible.

You have spent days and days defending your positions, but absolutely everyone can see what's really going on behind scenes, and you refuse to answer the most critical question, what did he do to get fired? no names or locations have been provided so pretty much you could answer if you wanted, but you know there's something you don't want anyone to know, and you know all this extra work you have done is just to get money out of this situation, and that's that.

You could have waited until everything was over and then tell the story, but i think you could not bear it inside you, you had to say something so that maybe you would find approval and feel peace of mind, meh.

I know nothing anyone say will change your mind, but just go and read this thread again, is clear anyone here can see the problem with this situation you're going through, as much as you try to lead them into ignoring the facts.

In the end, good luck and spend that money well, don't teach your kids that if they provoke an incident and then get fired/beaten up/dumped or whatever, and have a way to get back for revenge they can earn money or otherwise cause harm to someone else just to feel well after, you'll ruin their lives, really.

Good luck.

originally posted by: Kaifan
a reply to: grainofsand

Nothing you say will ever justify that you allowed your kid to work illegal hours and allowed him to break the laws you now trying to use for your benefit, just because money was/is involved, you as the parent failed to protect him by allowing him to work knowing perfectly well that he was breaking the law.

There was no 'protection' issue as my son chose to agree, but it is the law which states he is not able to agree to long hours until age 18. The law also says he can't watch 18 movies but I watch some with him based on my assessment of his maturity as a parent. Are you going to cry that I should protect him from all 18 movies now because the law says he shouldn't watch them?

The employer should be fined because they also broke the law, but you should not get a free pass out of this, you were a bad parent, take it in whatever way you want to take it, but you are the first one to blame in this case.

Nope, the first one to be blamed is the employer who knowingly set illegal hours for the employee. I discovered this after the employer broke the law, then let it slide after my son chose to do it and I was satisfied he was not suffering physically, mentally, or emotionally.

You should also be fined for allowing a child to be exploited just because he was earning more money than legally possible.

That is your opinion of course, but it is not the opinion of UK legislation. You are free to campaign for a change in the law if you feel so strongly about it. Best wishes with that.

You have spent days and days defending your positions, but absolutely everyone can see what's really going on behind scenes,

Again your opinion, but unless you can read my mind it would be more useful in debate to stick to my posted comments instead of inventing things.

and you refuse to answer the most critical question, what did he do to get fired?

You are incorrect, I have indeed stated the minor company rule breach which was used tactically to dismiss the employee.
If you missed it, I am not repeating it in this post, or helping you find it as you clearly failed to read all the thread before joining in and inventing things to whine about.

no names or locations have been provided so pretty much you could answer if you wanted, but you know there's something you don't want anyone to know,

Again, more invention from yourself - You really are not a very good mind reader, I hope it is not your day job.

and you know all this extra work you have done is just to get money out of this situation, and that's that.

Extra work? One email and a couple of phone conversations to a government agency.
The employer was vociferous about 'rules is rules' and punished the employee, the employee follows company example and sees to it that rules applicable to the company are also enforced vociferously, that is an equitable example of 'rules is rules' for both parties - The money is just a bonus.

You could have waited until everything was over and then tell the story, but i think you could not bear it inside you, you had to say something so that maybe you would find approval and feel peace of mind, meh.

Hahaha, that is priceless! Totally loving the amatuer psychology you're trying now lol, BS of course, but funny

I know nothing anyone say will change your mind, but just go and read this thread again, is clear anyone here can see the problem with this situation you're going through, as much as you try to lead them into ignoring the facts.

All the facts have been stated by me in this thread. You clearly do not believe them but you have nothing to support your own inventions to the story either. Again, you are a crap mind reader, try again.

In the end, good luck and spend that money well, don't teach your kids that if they provoke an incident and then get fired/beaten up/dumped or whatever, and have a way to get back for revenge they can earn money or otherwise cause harm to someone else just to feel well after, you'll ruin their lives, really.

I thank you for your wishes of good luck but I don't believe in such a thing, and do not require it anyway...and as for your moral advice, lol, it is all based on your own inventions to my story anyway so Pfft more amusing than anything else, what's the weather like so high up on that horse of yours?

a reply to: blackz28

It's exactly like statutory rape, except:

The mom let the 30 year old boyfriend stay at the house and have a relationship with the 16 year old for a few months. When the 30 year old "broke up" with the teen, the mom cried to the police about "rape".

Exactly the same thing.

Thank the gods you have a son OP. I would pity a daughter in your house where "as long as they are paid and happy" you turn a blind eye to the law.

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: blackz28

It's exactly like statutory rape, except:

The mom let the 30 year old boyfriend stay at the house and have a relationship with the 16 year old for a few months. When the 30 year old "broke up" with the teen, the mom cried to the police about "rape".

Exactly the same thing.

Nope, your example is ridiculous, and in any case, the sexual age of consent in the UK is 16.
This is about employment law being enforced after an employer has vociferously, and selectively, enforced 'rules is rules' as a tactical move to dismiss an employee when they no longer needed him.
Had the employer not treated the employee with such contempt then there would have been no problem, but the employee is following the employers fine example that 'all' rules are enforced, not just those decided by the employer.
Can't have it both ways, and that is always the risk when a company is knowingly breaking the law.

Thank the gods you have a son OP. I would pity a daughter in your house where "as long as they are paid and happy" you turn a blind eye to the law.

Oh please, could you be any more of a drama queen if you tried?
Your inventions to the story are childlike and clumsy at best. Try again, but perhaps have a cup of tea and calm your emotions before entering reasoned debate with someone - You may start accepting the premise of debate then and be able to hold back from your silly and unsubstantiated imaginations.

a reply to: grainofsand

Did you not ignore the illegal activities of your son as long as he was happy and being paid?

What part of that is drama queen?

I know you do not like opinions that are counter to your "perfect world/perfect son" story line. Life is not what we want it to be sometimes.

Perhaps a cup of Earl Grey is in order, however I stand by my opinion as strongly as you stand by yours. That's what makes the world such an interesting place to live.

originally posted by: jude11
"Now, while my son was loving the money and was hungry for every hour he could get, the employer filled his rota with 12 and 13 hour shifts and he loved the money he was earning...he absolutely loved it."

Sorry but I see both at fault here.

Actually 3 parties. The employer knew, your son knew and you as well.

Everything was ok until someone peed on the corn flakes and now only one is to blame even tho a rule was broken 3 times admittedly? I can't agree here.

Maybe you should have responsibility as well for allowing your child to be taken advantage of when you clearly were aware he was breaking the law as well.

Just IMHO

Good Luck tho.

Peace

He clearly stated that UK labor law puts the responsibility on the employer. Arguing anything past that is extraneous. It doesn't matter if the entire family knew, the ice cream man, his Nana or anyone else. The law is the law and whomever is responsible for observing and abiding by that law is liable for action because of their inaction and negligence. So, the Father's inaction is not a factor because the law states it is the responsibility of the employer and doesn't mention family or guardians. So, the Father is not at "fault". Understand?

As far as the 3 mistakes, the kid is 16, not an adult and kids are going to mess up especially if they are working too many hours and not getting proper rest/down time. Hence one of the reasons there are child labor laws in the first place.

I took issue with your opinion because he is discussing a case, not personal opinion and arguing over the Father's responsibility has no place in this discussion because he is not legally required to do so.

Just my two cents.

originally posted by: 200Plus
a reply to: grainofsand

Did you not ignore the illegal activities of your son as long as he was happy and being paid?

Ah, you see the activities of the child employee were not illegal under UK law, and neither was my awareness of the activities of my son and choice allowing it to continue.
In this case it is the sole responsibility of the employer to ensure that hours do not exceed the prescribed legal minimum for people under 18. Not the parents, or the child, the employer alone.

The only possible interest by the authorities would be a child welfare issue which is laughable and not seen by the agencies in this particular case.
The employer broke specific employment legislation and it is irrelevant legally if either the parent or child is aware of it or not.

If you do not like this legal situation then as I said you are free to campaign for UK law to be changed in this regard.
The employer was vociferous with 'company rules' when treating an employee in a shabby way, the employee was inspired by this 'rules is rules' attitude and the company is being pulled to task for breaking the law. Unlucky, but as the company put it 'rules is rules'.

The rest of your post regarding 'perfect son' I shall dismiss as more invented silliness by yourself.

a reply to: Mensa180
Pretty much sums up my stance.
I enjoy robust reasoned debate though, so the morally outraged who insert invented factors to the OP premise are of course free to whine as much as they like if it is within T & C's of the site.
I didn't post this in the Philosophy forum though so the moral debate is not my main concern, but it is of course amusing to read some of the emotional replies from folk who struggle to separate and debate the legal and ironic situation of a 'rules is rules' company suffering a penalty for breaking the law when they used their own rules for the wrong reasons.

a reply to: Annee

Yeah.. And she knew all about the abuse and extra hours all along and didn't move a finger because he was making good money.. "money money money!" and now that he's not making good money (or money at all) oh lets sue the bastards because he was underage and lets get money out of it! no matter he may have done some dirty stuff at least three times and was fired because of it. Money!

a reply to: grainofsand

There was no 'protection' issue as my son chose to agree, but it is the law which states he is not able to agree to long hours until age 18. The law also says he can't watch 18 movies but I watch some with him based on my assessment of his maturity as a parent.

No, i won't cry about that, however let me ask you a simple question, you won't complain about your son watching 18+ movies with you, but then you allowed him to work illegal hours as an underage, and why are you complaining about that, when you perfectly knew it was illegal? same as your 18+ movies that you watch next to him?

So you're ok with breaking some laws but allow breaking other laws as long as money is involved? please explain.

originally posted by: Kaifan
a reply to: grainofsand

There was no 'protection' issue as my son chose to agree, but it is the law which states he is not able to agree to long hours until age 18. The law also says he can't watch 18 movies but I watch some with him based on my assessment of his maturity as a parent.

No, i won't cry about that, however let me ask you a simple question, you won't complain about your son watching 18+ movies with you, but then you allowed him to work illegal hours as an underage, and why are you complaining about that, when you perfectly knew it was illegal? same as your 18+ movies that you watch next to him?

So you're ok with breaking some laws but allow breaking other laws as long as money is involved? please explain.

So.. your child had the final decision on wether he was allowed or not to work illegal hours, and you as a parent was aware but decided to let the final decision go to your underage child, and simply ignored the illegal status as long as good money was involved? is that what you're saying? wow..

And for all we know he was probably harassing a coworker or doing some other weird stuff that is not allowed by any employer anywhere and he was fired because they got fed up with warnings, anything at all, he decided to break the rules 'three times' in a row, that means he caused it, he got fired, and now you just want revenge, i really wonder what the reason he got fired is, that would solve it all, indeed.

originally posted by: Kaifan
i really wonder what the reason he got fired is, that would solve it all, indeed.

I've already stated the '3 strike' minor rule breach which the company tactically used to dismiss the employee.
If you are not prepared to read all of the thread before making your assertions then I'm not interested in helping you find the information which you obviously skimmed past.

...and as for your money money money silliness, nope, the employer treated employee like dirt and expressed a passion for 'rules is rules' while breaking the law itself. The employee , inspired by such vociferous enforcment of rules has acted to ensure punishment for breaking rules is applied to all parties. The money is a bonus for the employee of course, and a lesson to the employer that if 'rules is rules' then such a situation applies equally to employment law.

Oh, and regarding law breaking, I don't have any problem with picking and choosing which laws I comply with. For example I break speed limits if I consider it safe to do so, or I drive through red stop lights if there is clearly no other vehicle nearby.
I will also turn a blind eye to an employer breaching employment law if the employee is ok with it, but if a rogue employer hypocritically enforces 'rules is rules' to tactically dismiss an employee when they no longer need him, after he was the one who saved their arse many times when others phoned in sick, then refuse to even type a reference explaining the hard work they benefitted from...That is when I endorse the use of 'rules is rules' to punish them.

I don't give a toss about the money, I don't need it, and it will be paid to my son in any case, I was angry at the shoddy treatment for a hard working employee by a less than equitable company. If you do not believe that as the premise of the OP then mature discussion is unlikely, and your continuing moral preaching is nothing more than clumsy trolling.

a reply to: grainofsand

I don't support breaking child labor laws. Please don't put words in my mouth.

If you don't support breaking child labor laws, and if your son doesn't support breaking child labor laws, why allow the company to break them? Maybe your son didn't know better, but after the first time you heard about it, you would have shut that down if you were *truly* against breaking child labor laws.

originally posted by: lindalinda
a reply to: grainofsand

I don't support breaking child labor laws. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Well you did whine solely about the employee breaking minor 'company rules' while refraining from criticising the business for breaking employment law. I obviously found it curious that breaking 'company rules' was the only element of the story you felt important enough to share your righteous opinion about. No matter.

Regarding my personal considerations of law, I do not have respect for any legislation in itself, why would I? Law and morality are two separate and distinct beasts which just happen to share the same watering hole on occasion.

Certainly 'the law' is just a sometimes useful tool, or inconvenience as far as I'm concerned.
I broke the law when teaching my son to ride his motorbike on the public highway in the months before he reached the legal age. I broke local laws climbing trees in council owned wild woodland when he was little. I broke the law weekend camping with him on government owned countryside in a non-designated area. I break the speed limit regularly if driving and it is clearly no danger to anyone else. I break the law by allowing him to watch some 18 movies with me.
...but you won't hear me bleating like a lost lamb on the hillside if I choose to break the law and get punished, it is a game. Law does not equal morally defensible - For example, it is illegal for women to drive in Saudi Arabia.

I posted this in 'The Gray Area' and not 'Philosophy' for a reason. If you want to debate the moral questions then go ahead and start a similar thread there, you can be sure I will have no interest, and will leave you to your preaching.
But, if you are passionate that an employee must be punished for failing to comply with 'company rules', then clearly it should follow that the same passion is applied to employers who fail to comply with employment law.
That is exactly the situation in this case. The employer shoddily used an employee while they needed him, then tactically used a minor company rule (which most staff did not comply with) to dismiss him when the work was drying up. The employee took inspiration from this 'rules is rules' mantra of the employer and now they are being punished as well. It has created an equitable outcome for both parties. Employee punished for breaking rules - Employer punished for breaking the law.

Feel free to direct your moral questions to the 'Philosophy' forum as I'm not particularly interested here...this is about following rules and legislation, or not, and as the company often trumpeted loud and proud, 'Rules is rules'. lol

a reply to: grainofsand

You are the one who posted asking for our thoughts, so quit complaining that we offered them.

a reply to: lindalinda
My my, who is this 'we' you speak on behalf of? I directed my comments solely at you, and there was no 'complaining', just a clear statement that I'm not interested in your moral whining...there is a difference

*Edit*
I gave you a star for kindly bumping the thread.

Seems the vast majority of people in this thread know who the really bad person is.

Can i ask what was the offending Bracelet that got your son the sack.?

a reply to: grainofsand

With every attempt you make at sounding logical and justifying your bad parenting and bad choices, you look worse and worse, go out and enjoy your money and revenge, everyone knows that's what you are/were going for, it would be better for your peace of mind to close this thread and forget you came here asking for approval.

Also don't be ridiculous, nothing will change the fact that you are a terrible parent, just look at your last comment, is terrible, go away bad parent, hush hush!

And if there's someone immature here that would be you, with your lack of good parenting skills and lust for revenge, grow up already.

I was angry at the shoddy treatment for a hard working employee by a less than equitable company

Yes, only after your son and his failure to comply "3" times had him fired. Does your son has authority problems or finds it hard to follow simple directions? did you teach him that he needs to answer to no one and can do whatever he wants? and that everyone has to bow to his command? maybe?

Again, looks like everything was ok as long as good money was involved. What an outstanding act of hypocrisy.

I'm out of here, good luck in your lawsuit, pretty sure you'll win, enjoy that money you don't need but have spent weeks trying to justify against who know how many people here and on the real world and other forums. I think you got the wrong forum, people here are not that naive, why didn't you took this to a mainstream news site? imagine that, all the approval and probably even more "oh poor you and your kid" comments!

P.S. Don't sue me, i'm just speaking my mind, i have freedom to do it, although you probably can find a reason to say it was distressful to you and you felt alienated and so lost sleep and work hours and now you need to get compensated with 100,000 dollars or whatever, trust me, i 'm not either on the US or UK. Go ahead and disregard me because i'm living on a different country

Also, your son will fail in life due to your teachings. Bye

What I read was, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." .......

If there was a lesson your son learned that was probably it.

If you cared about what was right you would have put a stop to the child labor abuse when it happened not retaliate because it didn't end the way you had liked. Legally the company is in the wrong, morally, well that's a horse of a different color now isn't it.

Ask yourself, what lesson has my son learned here? Perhaps, don't get mad, get even? If someone hurts you hurt them more?