Ukraine crisis: T-72 tank shoots hole in Russian denial

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

No, they are not, sorry. I was looking at them from a phone while on the way home. Now, I am home and looking at more information.

Their is nonetheless something important to note here...that is, Ukraine has the Kontakt-5 ERA armour. That being said, it cannot be ruled out that they have not retrofitted other tanks with it. For instance, let's say a T-72AG broke down entirely, yet the Kontakt-5 ERA was intact...why not cannibalize the Kontakt-5 ERA and fit it onto another tank? This is a point that needs to be looked at as well.

On the other side, this could very well be damning evidence against Russia, especially if we can rule out the above possibility.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Unfortunately this is the age of deception. The Americans have caused huge trouble in Ukraine and continue to cause more. Ukraine's economy has been shattered by Western involvement. Despite that West feigns as the good guy.

Is Russian deception worse than American? Hard to say.

The T-72 tank was the most common tank of Soviet Union. It is not strange to see a T-72 in Ukraine. The add-on armour can be applied to any T series tanks.

You are mistaken in saying that T-72BM is not exported. But anyway that is not relevant.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Yes. As Russia claims they have not, and are not supplying the Rebels. This proves otherwise.

Right, just like the US says it isn't supporting the fascists who took over even though obviously we have been since our ambassador was even caught by the Russians plotting how exactly the Ukraine government was going to be manipulated.

The US can do whatever it wants and it's always Russia's fault....

I'm surprised you aren't saying it's Russias fault that we had to invade Iraq....

a reply to: AllSourceIntel

Yes, they are. The Kontakt-5 ERA armour is not what makes the tank a 72BM. The 72AG and 72BM are different tanks.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The T-72 tank was the most common tank of Soviet Union. It is not strange to see a T-72 in Ukraine. The add-on armour can be applied to any T series tanks.

You are mistaken in saying that T-72BM is not exported. But anyway that is not relevant.

Well then please show me a source for the T-72BM being exported, and to who it was exported to. It's the entire OP, it's relevant.

a reply to: Bassago

Dear Bassago,

Your avatar looks as fierce as ever, I'm glad to see it. In a scientific sense, I think our brains work differently. No criticism at all, some have blonde hair, or red, or brown.

The way I'm approaching this is to find something firm to stand on. Some definite fact, then try to spread out from there. I try to build my understanding piece by piece.

In this Ukraine issue it seems that my firm place to stand is that Russia sent troops into Crimea to get control of it, and they're sending troops and armor into East Ukraine. You take a different approach, it seems. "Who is the bad guy, who is responsible?" Valid questions, but are we there yet? I would think the first step is to find out what is happening, which I think OccamsRazor04 has pretty much nailed down.

My initial thought is not who is at fault or who started it, because experience tells me we can chase that back 100 years. I'm more curious about "Should it be dealt with?" "How?"

I find it awkward that so many posters are brushing aside the OP (and my definite fact) and saying after dozens of threads demanding proof, they now say "Forget it, that doesn't matter, let's argue about who started it."

Any grade school teacher know that "But he started it," is basically worthless and both parties should be sent back to their home rooms. I sometimes wonder if Russia should be sent back to it's home room while the adults figure out what to do.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Why cant Russia supply the separatists when the US is supporting and supplying the separatists against Assad?

Why is this only right and leagal for the US to do this but not for Russia?

There are more examples where the US have been supporting fractions who oppose its own government.

You have Libya, Egypt, Iran Yugoslavia and so on. The list is a lot longer.

You People dont see worng from right do you.

IIT: everyone missing the part of the wiki article where it says "it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia", which tells me it's possible it could be exported or operated outside Russia

originally posted by: IntroduceALittleIrony
IIT: everyone missing the part of the wiki article where it says "it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia", which tells me it's possible it could be exported or operated outside Russia

Anything is possible. Can you find a source for it having happened? The F-22 is not known to have been exported, is it possible it happened, yes, but there is zero evidence for it. Same here. If you can find evidence it was, I am willing to read.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Why cant Russia supply the separatists when the US is supporting and supplying the separatists against Assad?

Why is this only right and leagal for the US to do this but not for Russia?

There are more examples where the US have been supporting fractions who oppose its own government.

You have Libya, Egypt, Iran Yugoslavia and so on. The list is a lot longer.

You People dont see worng from right do you.

Off topic.

Russia claims they are not doing it. Why is Russia claiming they are not doing it if they are and there is no problem with it?

a reply to: charles1952

Dear Charles, when are you going to realize that nothing actually matters if you pretend it does not matter who started it, or who did what.

It is the ONLY thing that matters, too bad for you those emotional reactions you call strong, are the weakest source of truth, period.

Finding out why everything goes on, is the only thing that matters, why would anyone care about anything else??

Not like anyone has ever solved a problem , by treating the symptom, but hey, maybe it is just better to be completely in the dark, and trust that Ying and Yang are real ???

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Are you really trying to tell us that all sorts of armor, and the sales of ALL kinds of military equipment are actually truthfully declared for the public to see, I think your entire OP reeks of laughability.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Are you really trying to tell us that all sorts of armor, and the sales of ALL kinds of military equipment are actually truthfully declared for the public to see, I think your entire OP reeks of laughability.

Awesome. Then all you have to do is find a source for Ukraine having this weapon. Then we can call it a HOAX. I will wait for your source.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The T-72 tank was the most common tank of Soviet Union. It is not strange to see a T-72 in Ukraine. The add-on armour can be applied to any T series tanks.

You are mistaken in saying that T-72BM is not exported. But anyway that is not relevant.

Well then please show me a source for the T-72BM being exported, and to who it was exported to. It's the entire OP, it's relevant.

We only have a video as your source. Looking at your video and snapshot, the only thing established is that the tank is a T-72 variant.

The video shows a tank that is very similar to T-90, a tank also used by Indian Army. However it is hard to say if the tank in video is T-90 for sure. The problem is external similarity of T series tanks. The difference is inside.

The bolt-on armour does not conclusively prove that tank is from Russian Army.

a reply to: GargIndia

So we only have an actual video and an actual expert Research Analyst. You are right, it really needs to have spraypainted T-72BM.

Again the problem in Ukraine is that Russian fighting on Donetsk side is no different from Poles fighting on Kiev side, whatever way you try to paint it.

No war in this world has been fought with purely "local" equipment. The weapons always are bought from somewhere, or provided by somebody. Ask Israel to fight without American weapons?

The Kiev government has no dearth of resources. Despite that its army abandons positions on 200km long front just because of two armour columns and 1000 men. Is this really Ukrainian nationalism talking? Or Ukrainian nationalism is limited to shelling apartment blocks?

Donetsk has every right to import the most advanced Russian tanks. Let us not deviate from that right.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: GargIndia

So we only have an actual video and an actual expert Research Analyst. You are right, it really needs to have spraypainted T-72BM.

How do you know it is "actual" video.

Your news organizations and your leaders lie every minute. How difficult it is to use captured equipment and props?

a reply to: ParasuvO

Dear ParasuvO,

When your house is flooding, the first thing you do is shut off the water, then see what the problem is. When it's filling with gas, you don't look for the leak. When your temperature is 104, the doctors put you in an ice bath, then look for the trouble.

When tanks are rolling through your country, you don't stop to prepare reports on how the Russians caused the near total extinction of Ukrainians through famine, or how isolated and afraid the Russians are by being near NATO. You stop the tanks, then look for the problem.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: GargIndia
Donetsk has every right to import the most advanced Russian tanks. Let us not deviate from that right.

And there we go again. From it did not happen to who cares if it did. Why have you people made such a big deal out of saying Russia is not doing this if them doing it is perfectly natural?

originally posted by: GargIndia

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: GargIndia

So we only have an actual video and an actual expert Research Analyst. You are right, it really needs to have spraypainted T-72BM.

How do you know it is "actual" video.

Your news organizations and your leaders lie every minute. How difficult it is to use captured equipment and props?

Great, prove it's not. It looks like an actual video to me.